Does God Exist?

[Pandeeria]

The Bible itself is like a textbook, chronicling real-life events, such as the origin of the Jews, the Roman Empire, the death of Jesus even! What more should I say?

Exactly. Thats what I meant by records.

You know if I write down that my food is a 4th demensional monster, that's technically a text? A record? So you would believe that, according to your logic.

[New Libertarian States]

The Bible itself is like a textbook, chronicling real-life events, such as the origin of the Jews, the Roman Empire, the death of Jesus even! What more should I say?

Exactly. Thats what I meant by records.

So you believe in the events of Moses and the exodus from Pharaoh, correct?

[Anachronous Rex]

There are actually records that do show evidence that events in the Bible did happen.

London exists,
Harry Potter takes place in London
therefore wizards and griffons are real

do you understand the flaw in the logic now?

Oh thank god...

*waves stick*

"Chlamydia removeo!"

[The Orson Empire]

Exactly. Thats what I meant by records.

So you believe in the events of Moses and the exodus from Pharaoh, correct?

Yes.

[Menassa]

It's not the same God... I'm not sure if you're aware but Jews don't believe Satan rebelled against God and it is from the Jewish understanding that Angels don't have free-will.

Like I said, same God (Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, etc.) Just different comsological stories.

You're asking why there is a contradiction in the Judeo-Christain God.

You're contradiction doesn't apply to half of the people who believe in that 'God'

[Sociobiology]

There are actually records that do show evidence that events in the Bible did happen.

Like?

Well Egypt existed...
but no Moses though.

[The Orson Empire]

Exactly. Thats what I meant by records.

You know if I write down that my food is a 4th demensional monster, that's technically a text? A record? So you would believe that, according to your logic.

Once again, thats not what I mean.

[Bundesdeutschland]

Same God. Would you prefer Judeo-Christian-Muslim?

It's not the same God... I'm not sure if you're aware but Jews don't believe Satan rebelled against God and it is from the Jewish understanding that Angels don't have free-will.

What sect of Judaism are you? It depends. And from what the Christians believe, yes, we both worship the God of Abraham, Jacob, and so on and so forth.

[Pandeeria]

There are actually records that do show evidence that events in the Bible did happen.

London exists, and they really do have train stations, therefore all of Harry Potter is true.

Viruses evolve to overcome vaccines. That's like evolution. EVOLUTION = REAL (according to that logic).

[Anachronous Rex]

Is there a reason the demonstration has to last thousands of years? The point would be proven after the first week.

That is far from true. I mean really a week I mean . No he could not prove it in a week. thousands of years proves that people will always serve him not just for their own well being. A week is not enough to prove people serve him not just for their well being.

Yeah, because I'm the one saying things facepalm worthy...

This guy is omniscient. And he made a bet. And the other guy, who knows that he is omniscient, bet against him. On purpose.

Do you even hear yourself?

[Pandeeria]

You know if I write down that my food is a 4th demensional monster, that's technically a text? A record? So you would believe that, according to your logic.

Once again, thats not what I mean.

What do you mean then?

[Menassa]

It's not the same God... I'm not sure if you're aware but Jews don't believe Satan rebelled against God and it is from the Jewish understanding that Angels don't have free-will.

What sect of Judaism are you? It depends. And from what the Christians believe, yes, we both worship the God of Abraham, Jacob, and so on and so forth.

I would like to say I am a Pharisee son of a Pharisee.

You see I don't believe that it is the same God... who would give us a Law after the event that made us not able to keep it as a mirror for us... yet tell us it's not to far.

[Bundesdeutschland]

London exists,
Harry Potter takes place in London
therefore wizards and griffons are real

do you understand the flaw in the logic now?

Oh thank god...

*waves stick*

"Chlamydia removeo!"

Logic doesn't always apply to a being outside of time and human logic...

[The Orson Empire]

Once again, thats not what I mean.

What do you mean then?

Ughh, I don't even know anymore, all I know is that this argument is dragging on forever, which was the point I was trying to make earlier.

[The New Lowlands]

You know if I write down that my food is a 4th demensional monster, that's technically a text? A record? So you would believe that, according to your logic.

Once again, thats not what I mean.

Statement by Orson:
A: "The bible is true."
B: "This is because there is writing to back some of it up."

Ai: "X is true."
Bi: "This is because there is writing to back some of X up."

Aii: "Harry Potter is true."
Bii: "This is because there is writing to back some of HP up."

Do you understand now, that that is exactly what you said?

[The New Lowlands]

Oh thank god...

*waves stick*

"Chlamydia removeo!"

Logic doesn't always apply to a being outside of time and human logic...

Maybe that would explain why he's so stupid in the Bible.

[The Orson Empire]

Once again, thats not what I mean.

Statement by Orson:
A: "The bible is true."
B: "This is because there is writing to back some of it up."

Ai: "X is true."
Bi: "This is because there is writing to back some of X up."

Aii: "Harry Potter is true."
Bii: "This is because there is writing to back some of HP up."

Do you understand now, that that is exactly what you said?

I'm talking about actual historical places and things that happened, not fan fiction.

[Tlaceceyaya]

Oh thank god...

*waves stick*

"Chlamydia removeo!"

Logic doesn't always apply to a being outside of time and human logic...

Logic applies to everything which is.

[The Basement of Your Mom]

Viruses evolve to overcome vaccines. That's like evolution. EVOLUTION = REAL (according to that logic).

Not analogous.

1. Evidence that viruses evolve is, in fact, proof that some evolution happens, whereas demonstration that London exists is not proof that Harry Potter is real.

2. We have evidence for evolution extending far beyond just evolution of viruses. We have very strong evidence for some of the most overreaching claims, including common descent of all species. We only have evidence for some of the non-supernatural, totally mundane stuff in the bible kind of happening as described.

[Anachronous Rex]

Oh thank god...

*waves stick*

"Chlamydia removeo!"

Logic doesn't always apply to a being outside of time and human logic...

Logic doesn't apply outside of logic. No kidding?

Demonstrate inhuman logic (this is actually possible, I'm just curious if you can pull it off.)

[Pandeeria]

What do you mean then?

Ughh, I don't even know anymore, all I know is that this argument is dragging on forever, which was the point I was trying to make earlier.

Ok let's start over.
The bible is real because _____________________________.
Please fill in the blank with a valid response and we can work from there.

[Bundesdeutschland]

What sect of Judaism are you? It depends. And from what the Christians believe, yes, we both worship the God of Abraham, Jacob, and so on and so forth.

I would like to say I am a Pharisee son of a Pharisee.

You see I don't believe that it is the same God... who would give us a Law after the event that made us not able to keep it as a mirror for us... yet tell us it's not to far.

The law kept the people bound until Jesus died. You still looking for the Messiah? He's already passed! He's unbound the ceremony of it. You may not believe it, I can obviously see that, but guess what, I do. and I have evidence from the same text you read.

[The New Lowlands]

London exists, and they really do have train stations, therefore all of Harry Potter is true.

Viruses evolve to overcome vaccines. That's like evolution. EVOLUTION = REAL (according to that logic).

There is a shitload more evidence to back up evolution as per the scientific method, so don't even go down that road unless you want to get evidence-slapped.

[The Basement of Your Mom]

Logic applies to everything which is.

Logic applies to all propositions. It doesn't apply to things, but to statements about things.

[Salandriagado]

And we therefore assume him not to exist. That's just fucking logic. We don't know for sure, but we know about as close to that as we can.

No, that's not logical. Because while there is no proof, there's evidence. Like the Universe for starters.

Which can, indeed, come from nothing, being as it essentially amounts to nothing at all, as a net.

Philosophy and science agree a God that has no tangible effect on this universe is just as good as a God that doesn't exist.

No one said, anything about Tangible effect. I simply said proven.

You don't know what that word means. Kindly stop using it wrong.

To be fair, he's probably really busy.

Makes you wonder why he cares who we fuck and how we do it and why.

God is busy everyday. TIME doesn't matter to Him. He's OUTSIDE of TIME. He comes when He wants and needs to.

A being outside of time is literally incapable of doing anything at all.

Strathy:

However, that said, on the other side, there are plenty of arguments that say yes to the idea of a creator, for example, where did the matter from the universe originate from? We know the 'Big Bang' dispersed that matter to create what we now call the Universe. But where did this matter come from? And what was the initial 'kick' that allowed what may have been a previously stable sate to become so unstable and, effectively, explode?

That isn't what the Big Bang is. At all.

*smiles*

How is it, pray tell, that the universe proves God?

This should be fun.

I take great pleasure in winning the God argument. It's not even that hard.

You really should learn the difference between proof and evidence.

I did not say proves, I said it is evidence of his existence.

There is literally no proof of anything at all outside of mathematics and formal logic. Now, kindly explain how it is evidence.

A really tricky question from a scientific standpoint, because there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of a divine, intelligent creator or any other form of higher power. However, at the same time, we cannot categorically prove that there is not a divine creator. There are, of course, many arguments against both sides, such as if there is a god, who or what created it, and who created that god and so on, with various paradoxes forming because nothing can truly be omnipotent and so on.

However, that said, on the other side, there are plenty of arguments that say yes to the idea of a creator, for example, where did the matter from the universe originate from? We know the 'Big Bang' dispersed that matter to create what we now call the Universe. But where did this matter come from? And what was the initial 'kick' that allowed what may have been a previously stable sate to become so unstable and, effectively, explode?

The fact is, however, that where 'God' is concerned, the notion of this 'God' tends to be one of an unquestionable, final solution to the problem at hand; whereas the dismissal of a 'God' generally forces us to think more critically and to analyse the facts without an easy solution. We know this, this and this, but we don't know how this works, therefore God. It's not really a scientifically valid thought process.

The thing is, that scientifically, whilst the notion of a 'God' is a fair option for a solution, it's a valid option; however, it cannot be considered the only one. We cannot allow the notion of 'God' to become a safe retreat for when we don't understand things. Only once we can categorically say with 99.9999999999999% certainty (5 sigma, 13 nines is, I believe, correct) that there is a God, can we accept that as an answer to the problems we still don't understand.

And I leave you with a little quote from Dara O' Briain: "Science know's it doesn't know everything, if science knew everything, it would stop! Just because you can't understand something, doesn't mean you can fill in the blanks with whatever fairy story you like."

Actually, what I meant to say was, man's theories can't disprove God's existence; it's shown all around Earth. Ask a Creationist scientist. He can tell you, not me.

I can't think of one with a legitimate doctorate from a respectable institution. I'll leave it to the real scientists, thanks.

"Creationist scientist" is almost an oxymoron.

No it's not. There are plenty and it is a field of science from what I remember, along with evolution.

You are entirely and completely wrong. If you think otherwise, kindly name me one scientist, along with the institution from which he received his doctorate.

Alrighty then, if you want to mince over terms, how is the universe evident of God's existence?

As I said, The laws of Physics denote, "matter can not be created nor destroyed." "energy cannot be created nor destroyed."

Nope. High school physics says that. Actual physics does not.

It is logical to suggest that something with power greater than the laws of physics created the energy and matter of the universe.

There is, as a net, zero energy in the universe. Matter is energy.

Since nothing in the universe is greater than the universe, it is logical progression to assume a more powerful being outside the universe created it.

Nope. Kindly define "outside the universe".

I'm happy that there isn't a God. I like knowing that I'm in control of my life, responsible for my own failures and credited for my own success. Were I to win an academy award, I would need only thank my parents, none of this "Thank you God for giving me this award and also killing kids in Africa for no reason, great job there.".

It's not His doing; it's ours. If we were FULLY in control of our lives, we'd kill ourselves then and there within the next few seconds. I'm not joking.

No, we wouldn't. The fact that you think we would makes me very worried about you, honestly.

Matter is energy, and the net energy of the universe is 0. So this principal is not violated.

Net energy is not the same as no energy existing.

Yes, but conservation of energy is only concerned with net energy.

So you're just going to ignore my detailed post explaining how this is a complete oversimplification of physics then? Good to know. Now I know not to waste my time with you because you have no interest in learning or discussing anything. You just want to preach.

I was thinking about that myself.

How is it an oversimplification?

Has quantum physics and relativity somehow disproven Aristotle's claim?

Yes. Matter can be created/destroyed by various means (since matter is energy), and energy conservation only says that the net energy can't change - which indeed it hasn't. It's still zero.

What are you talking about? WE ARE in full control of ourselves

Not quite; we're still bound under laws and under unseen moral standards.

Laws that we made. Moral standards that are the product of evolution.

Then why's God an asshole? Better yet, why create suffering, God, you massive scumbag?

God didn't create suffering. We did. Suffering exists because Sin exists. Earth is not paradise. Heaven is paradise, where no suffering exists, and consequently, no sin exists.

Therefore, god is either not omnipotent or an arsehole.

Literally all of this post is bullshit. Matter can be created and destroyed. You can even create/destroy energy, providing you create/destroy equal amounts of negative energy at the same time.

Please see Law of conservation of Matter. Law of Conservation of Energy.

The former isn't a thing. The latter doesn't say what you think it does.

God created both us and Satan. What an asshole.

God created Satan as if he were on of us. Satan (Lucifer at the time) however became arrogant and proud and tried to overthrow God. Not God's fault, but Lucifer's own. WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN CRIMES, NOT GOD.

God is supposedly omniscient. Therefore, god knew it would happen. Therefore, it's god's fault.

This is directed towards evolutionist.

That isn't a word.

You people believe the Big Bang right?

Yes.

Well this is basically what the big bang is
First there was nothing then nothing magically exploded for no reason creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason whatsoever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs and you think that believing in a deity is far-fetched.

Nope. Not at all. Kindly stop trying to talk about what you don't understand.

The explain to me what how the Big Bang occured if nothing existed before the big bang.

P.S. Was suppose to be a joke people take stuff too seriously.

Physics that you can't understand and wont for many years, if ever.

Further proof anybody can make a website.

Then read the Bible buddy!! Otherwise, it's your choice to agree or not. It's that simple. And did you even read it yet?

I have read it. It's not evidence for anything other than its own existence.

which means nothingness cannot exist and the universe cannot have a beginning, otherwise nothing not even gods could exist. Which is how it is painfully easy to tell you are misunderstanding.

the actual principle is, "the net energy of a closed system constant."
otherwise written as
"the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant over time"


wrong, we make and destroy matter all the time. that's what powers the sun and every nuclear reactor.






wrong, read some physic not written by a grade school teacher.


Nope that would violate the laws as you written them as well.






yes see them, because you have not quoted them yet.

1. God would have existed outside of the laws of the universe before creating them. You're the one misunderstanding.

Define "outside the universe".

2. Jesus, okay Wikipedia to your rescue. The law of conservation of energy, first formulated in the nineteenth century, is a law of physics. It states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant over time. The total energy is said to be conserved over time. For an isolated system, this law means energy is localized and can change its location within the system, and it can change form within the system, for instance, chemical energy can become kinetic energy but it can be neither created nor destroyed.

Notice "19th century", As in "200 years out of date".

3. No Fission and Fusion does not destroy matter, It Changes matter. Wow, how bout YOU go back to school.

M/AM annihilation, and vacuum particle production, on the other hand...

4. As I said, the outside force who wrote the laws, would not be bound by the laws they created, as they would have already existed outside those laws.

Again, define "outside the universe".

Because he is an ass whole!

First you misspelled hole and second he warned them that they would become imperfect and die if they disobeyed him. So no he isn't Adam and Eve are.

Yeah, making an entity, knowing in advance that it would do something, making it such that it would do that thing, then punishing it for doing it, is a dick move. Period.

And there is sin in the universe. Therefore, god did not create the universe. QED.

Actually Isaiah 45:7 says God does create evil.

This guy disagrees.

Also Satan was an angel but he decide he wanted to take God's sovereignty so he became the devil and caused Adam and Eve to disobey. Satan became the father of lies and he is the cause of pain and suffering and us being imperfect.

God supposedly created satan. God is supposedly omniscient. Thus, god knew that satan would do that, and created him specifically so that he would.

Why did God create us with that defect if he foresaw the consequences and would just punish us for it?

Life itself is a test, remember? He gave us free will to decide to do what we could and we chose the wrong path. God wants US ourselves to actually admit we need his help, that we are all helpless without him. He could of just let die in Hell or rot away. But of course you don't believe in heaven or hell do you? Well, face it buddy! It's real! Wanna prove it (which I'm hoping you won't!)?

Yes. By how you've defined heaven and hell so far, I can say with 100% certainty that neither exists.

Prove that your god exists.

Right now.

(OA1) It’s possible that an all-surpassingly great being exists (i.e. a being greater than which nothing can be conceived). In other words, an all-surpassingly great being exists in some possible world.

False. If "great" is suitably defined, however, then there is a "greatest" being (or multiple such) within any given finite set of beings, and some infinite sets of beings.

(OA2) If an all-surpassingly great being exists in some possible world, then it exists in every possible world.

Definitely false. Seriously, formal logic 101 people.

(OA3) If an all-surpassingly great being in every possible world, then it exists in the actual world (since the actual world is clearly a possible world).

(OA4) If an all-surpassingly great being exists in the actual world, then an all-surpassingly great being actually exists.

True, but premised upon bullshit.

Why do you like to live in a place where a horrible, evil deity exists and thrives?

Because it's reality!!!! I don't live in a delusional world! Not like some others on here do! Good exists! Evil exists! What more should I say?! It's not like I'd like to live in this world; it's because I have an incentive to live this world! I KNOW that I'd be going to heaven if I died! You get that?!

...

I'm sorry for being so harsh, but reality is like that.

Source that bullshit. You don't "know" that you are going to heaven. You hope. That's it.

Query;

Why bother?

Because while his existence is not dependent on you, your existence is dependent on him.

Source?

It is he who has the righteous authority to Judge the World, and no other.

On what basis?

It is greater to exist than to not exist, so they greatest conceivable being would necessarily exist, if it did not exist in some possible world then that would be an example of it not existing, and therefore it would be found lacking (since its better to exist than to not exist) and the supreme being cannot be supreme if it is found to be lacking.

It is greater for a pencil to be in my hand than to not exist, as a pencil which does not exist. Therefore, there is a perfect pencil and it is in my hand. The only pencil in my hand is blunt, and hence imperfect. Thus, that's bullshit.

No, I'm talking about God's perspective.

Why are all you Christians so arrogant that you assume that if God exists, he gives a rat's ass about us in the unfashionable western spiral arm of this insignificant galaxy which is but a speck of a microcosm of the clusters of superclusters of galaxies that fill part of our universe?

WHY DID GOD CREATE THEN????

Easy. He didn't.

If you haven't noticed, God loves us! Read the Bible and see! If you don't like it, then leave!

I have read it. Actually reading it properly is probably the single greatest driving force towards people becoming atheist (at least in the Christian-majority world).

It is true.

Proof;
/pro͞of/
Noun
Evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.

Actually, if we're going to be formal here (as they have tried to be), I want an actual formal proof or nothing.

Orson you haven't earned that cookie yet. Please provide other "evidence" or tell how the bible is in any sense factual evidence.

There are actually records that do show evidence that events in the Bible did happen.

There is evidence that some of the events described in Harry Potter did happen.

Hell is not even in the bible...

Umm, yes it is.

Where, exactly?

Orson you haven't earned that cookie yet. Please provide other "evidence" or tell how the bible is in any sense factual evidence.

The Bible itself is like a textbook, chronicling real-life events, such as the origin of the Jews, the Roman Empire, the death of Jesus even! What more should I say?

None of that is evidence for the fairy tale bits.

So you believe in the events of Moses and the exodus from Pharaoh, correct?

Yes.

And the Flood? At the specified date?

London exists, and they really do have train stations, therefore all of Harry Potter is true.

Viruses evolve to overcome vaccines. That's like evolution. EVOLUTION = REAL (according to that logic).

Except that your argument is correct.

Oh thank god...

*waves stick*

"Chlamydia removeo!"

Logic doesn't always apply to a being outside of time and human logic...

1) Yes, it does.
2) Outside of time => Unable to act.

Statement by Orson:
A: "The bible is true."
B: "This is because there is writing to back some of it up."

Ai: "X is true."
Bi: "This is because there is writing to back some of X up."

Aii: "Harry Potter is true."
Bii: "This is because there is writing to back some of HP up."

Do you understand now, that that is exactly what you said?

I'm talking about actual historical places and things that happened, not fan fiction.

Are you denying that trains leave from London?