Does God Exist?

[Ostroeuropa]

Also, Mary's Room potentially disproves omniscience. (Though I come down hard against Qualia, some people think they constitute knowledge.)

Mary is a brilliant scientist who is, for whatever reason, forced to investigate the world from a black and white room via a black and white television monitor. She specializes in the neurophysiology of vision and acquires, let us suppose, all the physical information there is to obtain about what goes on when we see ripe tomatoes, or the sky, and use terms like ‘red’, ‘blue’, and so on. She discovers, for example, just which wavelength combinations from the sky stimulate the retina, and exactly how this produces via the central nervous system the contraction of the vocal cords and expulsion of air from the lungs that results in the uttering of the sentence ‘The sky is blue’. [...] What will happen when Mary is released from her black and white room or is given a color television monitor? Will she learn anything or not?


With that in mind, has god ever been not-god?
If we became not-god for a bit, would he learn anything?

(Learning things is not possible for god if he is omniscient.)

Well if Jesus really was God incarnate then God was simultaneously Man and God. He frequently called himself "Son of Man" actually.

But has never experienced what it was like to be Not-God.
Or to be non-existant, which is in itself an immediate disqualifier. (If you think Qualia constitutes knowledge.)

[Madredia]

Its funny that so many people say "If God really exists he should just come down and show it" but when he did, 2,000 years ago, we called him a heretic and nailed him to a cross, then persecuted his followers, feeding them to lions and such. He that has ears let him hear.

He clearly wasn't a god if he just let people crucify him.

Haha thats the beauty of it. The Vikings and other pagans thought the same thing. However, you would have to understand the whole message of Christianity to understand why him being crucified doesn't mean he's not God, in fact, it proves he was.

[Genivaria]

Well if Jesus really was God incarnate then God was simultaneously Man and God. He frequently called himself "Son of Man" actually.

But has never experienced what it was like to be Not-God.
Or to be non-existant, which is in itself an immediate disqualifier.

I recently saw a video by DarkMatter that said that God cannot be omniscient because he doesn't know what Lust feels like being all good.

[Umikai]

Also, Mary's Room potentially disproves omniscience. (Though I come down hard against Qualia, some people think they constitute knowledge.)

Mary is a brilliant scientist who is, for whatever reason, forced to investigate the world from a black and white room via a black and white television monitor. She specializes in the neurophysiology of vision and acquires, let us suppose, all the physical information there is to obtain about what goes on when we see ripe tomatoes, or the sky, and use terms like ‘red’, ‘blue’, and so on. She discovers, for example, just which wavelength combinations from the sky stimulate the retina, and exactly how this produces via the central nervous system the contraction of the vocal cords and expulsion of air from the lungs that results in the uttering of the sentence ‘The sky is blue’. [...] What will happen when Mary is released from her black and white room or is given a color television monitor? Will she learn anything or not?


With that in mind, has god ever been not-god?
If we became not-god for a bit, would he learn anything?

(Learning things is not possible for god if he is omniscient.)

He cant learn anything because he already knows it, right?
Also, God has always been God.

[Genivaria]

He clearly wasn't a god if he just let people crucify him.

Haha thats the beauty of it. The Vikings and other pagans thought the same thing. However, you would have to understand the whole message of Christianity to understand why him being crucified doesn't mean he's not God, in fact, it proves he was.

Not really no. And I'm not sure why you assume I don't understand Christianity seeing as how I was one for the majority of my life.

[Ostroeuropa]

Also, Mary's Room potentially disproves omniscience. (Though I come down hard against Qualia, some people think they constitute knowledge.)

Mary is a brilliant scientist who is, for whatever reason, forced to investigate the world from a black and white room via a black and white television monitor. She specializes in the neurophysiology of vision and acquires, let us suppose, all the physical information there is to obtain about what goes on when we see ripe tomatoes, or the sky, and use terms like ‘red’, ‘blue’, and so on. She discovers, for example, just which wavelength combinations from the sky stimulate the retina, and exactly how this produces via the central nervous system the contraction of the vocal cords and expulsion of air from the lungs that results in the uttering of the sentence ‘The sky is blue’. [...] What will happen when Mary is released from her black and white room or is given a color television monitor? Will she learn anything or not?


With that in mind, has god ever been not-god?
If we became not-god for a bit, would he learn anything?

(Learning things is not possible for god if he is omniscient.)

He cant learn anything because he already knows it, right?
Also, God has always been God.

Then you've either not understood or not paid attention. I'm now convinced enough that you are dead to reason.

[Transhuman Proteus]

He clearly wasn't a god if he just let people crucify him.

Not all gods ever known to man or made up to man have been warring gods who would smite you at the slightest provocation.

Of course the representative Genivaria is talking about there is associated with a God known for smiting.

[Ostroeuropa]

But has never experienced what it was like to be Not-God.
Or to be non-existant, which is in itself an immediate disqualifier.

I recently saw a video by DarkMatter that said that God cannot be omniscient because he doesn't know what Lust feels like being all good.

Yeh, that'd count too. Mary's room and all that.
I happen to think Qualia don't constitute knowledge and mary would not "Learn" anything at all.
Thats a fairly unpopular view though.

[Stovokor]

I own this fairly famous bridge, you see. For a cool $1, 000,000 it can be yours.



What are these sometimes?

Nothing scientific or legal it would appear.

I'm not trying to talk about something i can prove scientifically or prove legaly.

I think what the people in this thread are trying to get at is that there is no objective/documented/empirical evidence that what you believe in exists, and that belief in such a thing is a strictly emotional and irrational. This is fine, after all this is what faith is, believing in something on the emotional and personal level, this is why the god concept is designed the way it is and why religions focus more on emotion than logic and reason.

However, to claim that your personal. emotionally based truth, that is not documented and not objective and most importantly not in any way shape or form, empirical, is the truth of the universe is wrong, and this is even from a post-modernist academic standpoint.

[Madredia]

But has never experienced what it was like to be Not-God.
Or to be non-existant, which is in itself an immediate disqualifier.

I recently saw a video by DarkMatter that said that God cannot be omniscient because he doesn't know what Lust feels like being all good.

Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness. And when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of Good and Evil, they did so so that they "Would have knowledge of good and evil, being like god." SO God does know what lust and other evil feels like because he has knowledge of it.

[Genivaria]

Not all gods ever known to man or made up to man have been warring gods who would smite you at the slightest provocation.

Of course the representative Genivaria is talking about there is associated with a God known for smiting.

At the drop of a hat. Pillars of salt, mauled by bears, 1st born sons.
Squick.

[Umikai]

He cant learn anything because he already knows it, right?
Also, God has always been God.

Then you've either not understood or not paid attention. I'm now convinced enough that you are dead to reason.

oh please, what was your SAT score? xD
If Mary learns everything physical, there will be nothing left for Mary to learn, correct?
Is this story based on fact? And is it truthful?

[Genivaria]

I recently saw a video by DarkMatter that said that God cannot be omniscient because he doesn't know what Lust feels like being all good.

Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness. And when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of Good and Evil, they did so so that they "Would have knowledge of good and evil, being like god." SO God does know what lust and other evil feels like because he has knowledge of it.

That doesn't make a lick of sense. It's still a contradiction.

[Ostroeuropa]

Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness. And when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of Good and Evil, they did so so that they "Would have knowledge of good and evil, being like god." SO God does know what lust and other evil feels like because he has knowledge of it.

That doesn't make a lick of sense. It's still a contradiction.

To know lust is to experience lust.

[Umikai]

Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness. And when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of Good and Evil, they did so so that they "Would have knowledge of good and evil, being like god." SO God does know what lust and other evil feels like because he has knowledge of it.

That doesn't make a lick of sense. It's still a contradiction.

How is it a contradiction?

[Genivaria]

Then you've either not understood or not paid attention. I'm now convinced enough that you are dead to reason.

oh please, what was your SAT score? xD
If Mary learns everything physical, there will be nothing left for Mary to learn, correct?
Is this story based on fact? And is it truthful?

Use your faith.

[Transhuman Proteus]

Its funny that so many people say "If God really exists he should just come down and show it" but when he did, 2,000 years ago, we called him a heretic and nailed him to a cross, then persecuted his followers, feeding them to lions and such. He that has ears let him hear.

So - humans or pretty much humans have existed for 100,000+ years. We've been spread out over the entire world pretty much (Australian Aboriginals, for example, have been there for 40,000+ years).

So "coming down and showing it" consists of not appearing to humans for the vast majority of existence, and then being moderately active in & around one tiny geographical location for one brief period before disappearing from our lives again. How many people do you think actually got to see or hear Jesus? If he existed and did the stuff attributed to him it was a tiny fraction of people alive at the time.

I mean there are still tribes out there that have never heard of Christianity. Or the USA or tv or any of that.

[Madredia]

Haha thats the beauty of it. The Vikings and other pagans thought the same thing. However, you would have to understand the whole message of Christianity to understand why him being crucified doesn't mean he's not God, in fact, it proves he was.

Not really no. And I'm not sure why you assume I don't understand Christianity seeing as how I was one for the majority of my life.

If you had ever really understood Christianity you would never have become apostate. He allowed himself to be crucified because only a perfect being bearing all of man's sins would qualify to be a sacrifice to cleanse all of man's sins. God doesn't break his own rules. If he wasn't God, his death would be useless, and there would be no point in it.

[Umikai]

That doesn't make a lick of sense. It's still a contradiction.

To know lust is to experience lust.

How do you know that?

[Genivaria]

That doesn't make a lick of sense. It's still a contradiction.

How is it a contradiction?

To know lust is to experience lust.

[Genivaria]

Not really no. And I'm not sure why you assume I don't understand Christianity seeing as how I was one for the majority of my life.

If you had ever really understood Christianity you would never have become apostate. He allowed himself to be crucified because only a perfect being bearing all of man's sins would qualify to be a sacrifice to cleanse all of man's sins. God doesn't break his own rules. If he wasn't God, his death would be useless, and there would be no point in it.

Oh here we go with the No True Scotsmen nonsense. I think it's safe to dismiss you.

[Ostroeuropa]

To know lust is to experience lust.

How do you know that?

Lust is an intense desire or craving.

In order for god to know what it feels like to have an intense desire or craving, he must have experienced it. Otherwise, he wouldn't know what it feels like.
The Missing Shade of Blue is an example of this.

[Umikai]

oh please, what was your SAT score? xD
If Mary learns everything physical, there will be nothing left for Mary to learn, correct?
Is this story based on fact? And is it truthful?

Use your faith.

So you're saying it's true but not fact? like parts of the Bible?

[Madredia]

That doesn't make a lick of sense. It's still a contradiction.

To know lust is to experience lust.

False.

[Ostroeuropa]

To know lust is to experience lust.

False.

Go ahead and falsify it.