Holocaust Denial

[Grave_n_idle]

Then you are blind.

And you're a hypocrite.

*shrug*

I said some of them, yes.

Fair enough - then it is 'all about me'. (To borrow your phrasing).

It is to some of the people who lived though it.

We can add 'insult to the list of words you don't understand.

It's like saying that torture awesome to someone who was almost tortured to death.

Which would be a douchebag thing to say, but it isn't illegal, and shouldn't be.

[Grave_n_idle]

Denying the Holocaust is like denying that Stark is the best house - it's stupid and ridiculous, but should still be legal.

Exactly.

And you misspelled Baratheon.

[Shofercia]

You do realize that there's a MASSIVE difference between someone trying to wipe out your entire race, and everyday bullshit, right? Additionally, you seem to be rather clueless when it comes to Genocide, because you mention "Genocidal-levels of human deaths". The sheer stupidity of such a statement is quite stunning. If there's a race that only has 10,000 members, and you kill them all, you're a Genocidal Maniac. Similarly, if there's a race that has 10,000,000, and you kill them all, you're a Genocidal Maniac. 10,000 is very different from 10 million, so there's no such thing as "Genocidal levels of human death". And what's a breeder? Someone who produces a progeny?

I was using 'genocide' as a contextual stand-in for Holocaust. Pardon me. People have said that Global Warming will lead to millions of human deaths.

How is Holocaust denial equivalent to wiping out a race? Now, there's no doubt the majority of people with such an opinion think the race should be wiped out, but here again what justifies shutting up this particular brand of bullshit they spout and not other brands spouted by other people?

Global Warming can lead to millions of human deaths. Not will lead, can lead. There are still ways to mitigate the damage, although we are running out of time. Also, I'm not saying that Holocaust Denial is equivalent to wiping out a race. I am saying that Holocaust Denial is an attempt to deny someone wiping out an entire race, and serves no purpose, other than trolling some of the members of said race/ethnicity.

[Shofercia]

Then you are blind.

And you're a hypocrite.

*shrug*

Only in your dreams.

I said some of them, yes.

Fair enough - then it is 'all about me'. (To borrow your phrasing).

You are one person. You are not multiple people. Again, not a difficult concept to grasp.

It is to some of the people who lived though it.

We can add 'insult to the list of words you don't understand.

So you're completely clueless. Gotcha. Protip: if something is insulting to someone, because it's an insolent or contemptuously rude action or remark towards that person, it's an insult to that person.

It's like saying that torture awesome to someone who was almost tortured to death.

Which would be a douchebag thing to say, but it isn't illegal, and shouldn't be.

WTF?! So should it also be legal to say "you deserved to be raped" to a rape victim?

[Eucadian Federation]

And you're a hypocrite.

*shrug*

Only in your dreams.

Just gonna throw in a thought...

You're a smart ass. And to answer your question
>First of all, no one would say "You deserved to be raped" to a rape victim. Let's be real about that. Secon
Fair enough - then it is 'all about me'. (To borrow your phrasing).

You are one person. You are not multiple people. Again, not a difficult concept to grasp.

We can add 'insult to the list of words you don't understand.

So you're completely clueless. Gotcha. Protip: if something is insulting to someone, it's an insult to that person.

Which would be a douchebag thing to say, but it isn't illegal, and shouldn't be.

WTF?! So should it also be legal to say "you deserved to be raped" to a rape victim?

You're a smart ass. And to answer your question
>First of all, no one would say "You deserved to be raped" to a rape victim. Let's be real about that. Secondly, everyone is entitled to an opinion. If I say that I don't like you because you're a creep and you try to stab me with a knife, the problem is obviously yours. Not mine.

[Slovenya]

wow this is still going on?

[Hathradic States]

Denying the Holocaust is like denying that Stark is the best house - it's stupid and ridiculous, but should still be legal.

This wins you an internet.

[Shofercia]

Only in your dreams.




You are one person. You are not multiple people. Again, not a difficult concept to grasp.




So you're completely clueless. Gotcha. Protip: if something is insulting to someone, it's an insult to that person.




WTF?! So should it also be legal to say "you deserved to be raped" to a rape victim?

You're a smart ass. And to answer your question
>First of all, no one would say "You deserved to be raped" to a rape victim. Let's be real about that. Secondly, everyone is entitled to an opinion. If I say that I don't like you because you're a creep and you try to stab me with a knife, the problem is obviously yours. Not mine.

If you're about to be stabbed with a knife, you have a problem. If you fail to realize that, you might end up with a Darwin. (BTW, I'm not actually advocating knife related violence.)

As to your first point: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/2 ... 54980.html

As seen in the video, Saxton yelled, "You deserve to be raped," at women walking by, insisting their fathers hate them for allowing them to dress in that way.

It's quite feasible that Saxton isn't the only one doing this, and that one of the women walking by one of the Saxtons, was raped. Either way, it's a hypo, so if you cannot answer it, don't bother replying.

[Grave_n_idle]

Only in your dreams.

This is about par for the course for you in this thread - no substance, just a lot of bile.

It's a shame, I had hoped someone was finally going to have an excuse for why it's not okay to speak freely.

You are one person. You are not multiple people.

And multiple people are just collections of one person.

So what are you actually arguing - it's okay to make holocaust denial illegal just because a lot of people say so?

Tyranny of the majority.

So you're completely clueless. Gotcha. Protip: if something is insulting to someone, because it's an insolent or contemptuously rude action or remark towards that person, it's an insult to that person.

Ah, so what you're saying is that your comment right there - is an insult.

But holocaust denial isn't, because it's not directed towards anyone.

WTF?! So should it also be legal to say "you deserved to be raped" to a rape victim?

I suspect that probably is legal most places. It'd be a douche-bag thing to say, but legal.

Hell, that particular example isn't even that uncommon - I can't count how many times I've heard blame-the-victim variants about rape.

But none of this explains the one fundamental hypocrisy you've flat-out refused (or are just incapable) to answer - why it's okay to ban some forms of denial, when others are perfectly acceptable.


You see - I don't care either way, so long as it is consistent. if it's legal to say that evolution didn't happen, and that climate change isn't happening, it has to be legal to say the holocaust didn't happen.

If it's illegal to deny the holocaust, it needs to be illegal to deny climate change, or evolution.

Otherwise it's hypocrisy.

[Eucadian Federation]

You're a smart ass. And to answer your question
>First of all, no one would say "You deserved to be raped" to a rape victim. Let's be real about that. Secondly, everyone is entitled to an opinion. If I say that I don't like you because you're a creep and you try to stab me with a knife, the problem is obviously yours. Not mine.

If you're about to be stabbed with a knife, you have a problem. If you fail to realize that, you might end up with a Darwin. (BTW, I'm not actually advocating knife related violence.)

As to your first point: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/2 ... 54980.html

As seen in the video, Saxton yelled, "You deserve to be raped," at women walking by, insisting their fathers hate them for allowing them to dress in that way.

It's quite feasible that Saxton isn't the only one doing this, and that one of the women walking by one of the Saxtons, was raped. Either way, it's a hypo, so if you cannot answer it, don't bother replying.

Noticed how I said "Entitled to an opinion"
It's a dick move to say, but its your opinion.

Keyword: OPINION

[Shofercia]

Only in your dreams.

This is about par for the course for you in this thread - no substance, just a lot of bile.

It's a shame, I had hoped someone was finally going to have an excuse for why it's not okay to speak freely.

I gave you an explanation. You showed complete inability to comprehend it. Not my problem.

You are one person. You are not multiple people.

And multiple people are just collections of one person.

Hence it cannot actually be about just you. Duh!

So you're completely clueless. Gotcha. Protip: if something is insulting to someone, because it's an insolent or contemptuously rude action or remark towards that person, it's an insult to that person.

Ah, so what you're saying is that your comment right there - is an insult.

But holocaust denial isn't, because it's not directed towards anyone.

If someone lived through the Holocaust, and you are informing them that a Holocaust was a figment of their imagination, then you are making an insolent and contemptuously rude remark towards that person. Hence it's an insult to Holocaust survivors.

WTF?! So should it also be legal to say "you deserved to be raped" to a rape victim?

I suspect that probably is legal most places. It'd be a douche-bag thing to say, but legal.

Hell, that particular example isn't even that uncommon - I can't count how many times I've heard blame-the-victim variants about rape.

So you think that causing severe emotional pain to others, in the name of juvenile free speech, that's completely senseless, should be legal. Gotcha. I strongly disagree.

But none of this explains the one fundamental hypocrisy you've flat-out refused (or are just incapable) to answer - why it's okay to ban some forms of denial, when others are perfectly acceptable.

Because one form is an ethnocentric insult, revolving around Genocide. The other isn't. You don't think that coming up to someone and saying "that sheer torture you lived through, just because you were ethnicity X, that actually never happened, you imagined it, here are your Madagascar tickets" is insulting to them. I think that it's extremely insulting.

[Shofercia]

If you're about to be stabbed with a knife, you have a problem. If you fail to realize that, you might end up with a Darwin. (BTW, I'm not actually advocating knife related violence.)

As to your first point: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/2 ... 54980.html



It's quite feasible that Saxton isn't the only one doing this, and that one of the women walking by one of the Saxtons, was raped. Either way, it's a hypo, so if you cannot answer it, don't bother replying.

Noticed how I said "Entitled to an opinion"
It's a dick move to say, but its your opinion.

Keyword: OPINION

First you claimed that "no one would say "You deserved to be raped" to a rape victim" - and I provided a link of someone saying that to passerbys, some of whom might be rape victims.

Second you claimed that if you call me a creep, and I stab you with a knife, it's not your problem. I pointed out that if someone is being stabbed with a knife, it is their problem, or else they could end up with a Darwin.

[Scorpions on the moon]

WTF?! So should it also be legal to say "you deserved to be raped" to a rape victim?

Yes.

You seem to arguing based on emotion and outrage rather than reason. Oh, it makes me feel bad if people can say the holocaust never happened, so they shouldn't be able to. Blabity bla bla bla.

[Eucadian Federation]

Noticed how I said "Entitled to an opinion"
It's a dick move to say, but its your opinion.

Keyword: OPINION

First you claimed that "no one would say "You deserved to be raped" to a rape victim" - and I provided a link of someone saying that to passerbys, some of whom might be rape victims.

Second you claimed that if you call me a creep, and I stab you with a knife, it's not your problem. I pointed out that if someone is being stabbed with a knife, it is their problem, or else they could end up with a Darwin.

Hey! Guess what!? I choose not to believe it.

Wanna know why? Because it's my opinion

[Shofercia]

WTF?! So should it also be legal to say "you deserved to be raped" to a rape victim?

Yes.

You seem to arguing based on emotion and outrage rather than reason. Oh, it makes me feel bad if people can say the holocaust never happened, so they shouldn't be able to. Blabity bla bla bla.

What reason is there for denying the Holocaust? Just saying "hurr durr, me want to troll others... free speech!"

I'm saying that in case of Genocidal Events, where their denial doesn't bring any benefit to the community, and insults millions, it's actually ok to ban denial of said events. That seems very reasonable.

[Shofercia]

First you claimed that "no one would say "You deserved to be raped" to a rape victim" - and I provided a link of someone saying that to passerbys, some of whom might be rape victims.

Second you claimed that if you call me a creep, and I stab you with a knife, it's not your problem. I pointed out that if someone is being stabbed with a knife, it is their problem, or else they could end up with a Darwin.

Hey! Guess what!? I choose not to believe it.

Wanna know why? Because it's my opinion

I'm ok with that.

[Scorpions on the moon]

Yes.

You seem to arguing based on emotion and outrage rather than reason. Oh, it makes me feel bad if people can say the holocaust never happened, so they shouldn't be able to. Blabity bla bla bla.

What reason is there for denying the Holocaust? Just saying "hurr durr, me want to troll others... free speech!"

I'm saying that in case of Genocidal Events, where their denial doesn't bring any benefit to the community, and insults millions, it's actually ok to ban denial of said events. That seems very reasonable.

People genuinely believe that the holocaust didn't happen. Don't act as if everyone who denies the holocaust is doing so because they have some conscious desire to piss off other people. Not everybody who disagrees with you is some type of psychopath. Are these beliefs rational? Probably not, but offensive and irrational beliefs are tolerated every day. It's part of living in a free society.

We live in a world of billions of people. Everyone is going to end up holding an opinion that offends a group of people. There are no rational reasons to suppress these opinions other than outrage and arguments from emotion.

[Grave_n_idle]

...their denial doesn't bring any benefit to the community, and insults millions,

It doesn't. And repeating it won't make it true.

[Eucadian Federation]

Hey! Guess what!? I choose not to believe it.

Wanna know why? Because it's my opinion

Works for me!

I don't think it does....

But then yet again... that's my opinion

I'm still waiting to see if you get my point. But then yet again, you'll say that I'm not making a point. Maybe your blind by your emotions?

I've listened to people give conspiracy theories and deny that 9/11 happened. I'm 16 and I am in fact, considered a 9/11 survivor (23rd Floor North Tower, making our way up to Windows on the World)

Thing is, that's their opinion. I can't change the fact that they believe that. I actually don't care. If they want to believe that the government killed a thousand of its own, then let them. Yeah, its disrespectful to the family friends that we lost and many others, but that's their belief. I give them my story and they can find every way possible to say that I'm wrong. I know the truth because I was there. We have proof that the holocaust happened, but then you just have to accept the fact that there are people out there who don't want to believe it. Some of them have reasons not to, others choose too, and some just do it to well, do it.

Just get over it.

[Shofercia]

What reason is there for denying the Holocaust? Just saying "hurr durr, me want to troll others... free speech!"

I'm saying that in case of Genocidal Events, where their denial doesn't bring any benefit to the community, and insults millions, it's actually ok to ban denial of said events. That seems very reasonable.

People genuinely believe that the holocaust didn't happen. Don't act as if everyone who denies the holocaust is doing so because they have some conscious desire to piss off other people. Not everybody who disagrees with you is some type of psychopath. Are these beliefs rational? Probably not, but offensive and irrational beliefs are tolerated every day. It's part of living in a free society.

We live in a world of billions of people. Everyone is going to end up holding an opinion that offends a group of people. There are no rational reasons to suppress these opinions other than outrage and arguments from emotion.

You don't have to be a psychopath to be an excellent troll, nor did I ever say that everyone who disagreed with me is a psychopath, but I see that you are simply incapable of posting without the use of strawmen.

Additionally, I'm not calling for the censure of all free speech; I'm limiting it to Genocidal Events, that clearly were Genocidal Events. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. If one is allowed to deny every single Genocide that happened, then what's to stop them from advocating for another Genocide?

[Grave_n_idle]

I gave you an explanation. You showed complete inability to comprehend it. Not my problem.

No, by your own admission, you gave me emotion. You've completely failed - over and over - to actually provide an argument

Hence it cannot actually be about just you. Duh!

So you're going to TELL us - the descendents of survivors - what we think, now?

If someone lived through the Holocaust, and you are informing them that a Holocaust was a figment of their imagination, then you are making an insolent and contemptuously rude remark towards that person.

Nope. I would be telling them that things are not how they remember. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

Hence it's an insult to Holocaust survivors.

Nope. You still don't know what they word 'insult' means.

So you think that causing severe emotional pain to others, in the name of juvenile free speech,

Free speech is not juvenile.

...that's completely senseless, should be legal. Gotcha. I strongly disagree.

You disagree with free speech?

I actually kind of agree with you - I certainly don't believe in hate speech, for example. But that's not what we're talking about, no matter how far you try to shift the goalposts.

Because one form is an ethnocentric insult, revolving around Genocide. The other isn't. You don't think that coming up to someone and saying "that sheer torture you lived through, just because you were ethnicity X, that actually never happened, you imagined it, here are your Madagascar tickets" is insulting to them. I think that it's extremely insulting.

That's because you still don't understand what an insult is.

You've also still failed to give any explanation as to why people shouldn't be legally allowed to deny something.

[Shofercia]

Works for me!

I don't think it does....

But then yet again... that's my opinion

I'm still waiting to see if you get my point. But then yet again, you'll say that I'm not making a point. Maybe your blind by your emotions?

I've listened to people give conspiracy theories and deny that 9/11 happened. I'm 16 and I am in fact, considered a 9/11 survivor (23rd Floor North Tower, making our way up to Windows on the World)

Thing is, that's their opinion. I can't change the fact that they believe that. I actually don't care. If they want to believe that the government killed a thousand of its own, then let them. Yeah, its disrespectful to the family friends that we lost and many others, but that's their belief. I give them my story and they can find every way possible to say that I'm wrong. I know the truth because I was there. We have proof that the holocaust happened, but then you just have to accept the fact that there are people out there who don't want to believe it. Some of them have reasons not to, others choose too, and some just do it to well, do it.

Just get over it.

Genocide is a "tad" more traumatic than surviving a single hellish day. Really not that hard to comprehend.

[Grave_n_idle]

Genocide is a "tad" more traumatic than surviving a single hellish day.

What a ridiculously cruel thing to say.

I can see why you're in favour of legal sanctions on free speech, now... because without them, you, yourself, say things like that.

[Eucadian Federation]

I don't think it does....

But then yet again... that's my opinion

I'm still waiting to see if you get my point. But then yet again, you'll say that I'm not making a point. Maybe your blind by your emotions?

I've listened to people give conspiracy theories and deny that 9/11 happened. I'm 16 and I am in fact, considered a 9/11 survivor (23rd Floor North Tower, making our way up to Windows on the World)

Thing is, that's their opinion. I can't change the fact that they believe that. I actually don't care. If they want to believe that the government killed a thousand of its own, then let them. Yeah, its disrespectful to the family friends that we lost and many others, but that's their belief. I give them my story and they can find every way possible to say that I'm wrong. I know the truth because I was there. We have proof that the holocaust happened, but then you just have to accept the fact that there are people out there who don't want to believe it. Some of them have reasons not to, others choose too, and some just do it to well, do it.

Just get over it.

Genocide is a "tad" more traumatic than surviving a single hellish day. Really not that hard to comprehend.

So far, you have not provided a valid argument. To be frank, you're speaking out of your ass.

What part of "That's their opinion" do you not understand? Get that through your thick skull. You're not going to be able to change it no matter how hard you debate it or evidence you give them. You might shut them up, but you won't fully change their views on it.

Just gtfo.

[Shofercia]

I gave you an explanation. You showed complete inability to comprehend it. Not my problem.

No, by your own admission, you gave me emotion. You've completely failed - over and over - to actually provide an argument

Keep repeating that dear.

Hence it cannot actually be about just you. Duh!

So you're going to TELL us - the descendents of survivors - what we think, now?

Not what you were actually arguing, nor was that what I was actually responding to. My point was that it's not all about you.

If someone lived through the Holocaust, and you are informing them that a Holocaust was a figment of their imagination, then you are making an insolent and contemptuously rude remark towards that person.

Nope. I would be telling them that things are not how they remember. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

So spitting on the memory of Holocaust survivors isn't insulting to you?

Hence it's an insult to Holocaust survivors.

Nope. You still don't know what they word 'insult' means.

I quoted the definition from dictionary.com. In your stupid response of breaking up the post, you missed it. Not my problem.

So you think that causing severe emotional pain to others, in the name of juvenile free speech,

Free speech is not juvenile.

Some speech is juvenile, even if it's free. Deal with it.

...that's completely senseless, should be legal. Gotcha. I strongly disagree.

You disagree with free speech?

A certain type, yes, I do. Freedom to criticize the policies of a government - I'm all for that! Freedom to troll - that freedom should be somewhat limited.

I actually kind of agree with you - I certainly don't believe in hate speech, for example. But that's not what we're talking about, no matter how far you try to shift the goalposts.

So you disagree with free speech?

Because one form is an ethnocentric insult, revolving around Genocide. The other isn't. You don't think that coming up to someone and saying "that sheer torture you lived through, just because you were ethnicity X, that actually never happened, you imagined it, here are your Madagascar tickets" is insulting to them. I think that it's extremely insulting.

That's because you still don't understand what an insult is.

You've also still failed to give any explanation as to why people shouldn't be legally allowed to deny something.

I was referring to a specific event. It's not just denial of some random things.