Holocaust Denial

[Grave_n_idle]

I don't see why it's special. Some people deny the holocaust, some deny global climate change, some deny evolution. They're equally stupid and unsupportable positions, but only one of them is socially unacceptable.

Hijacking briefly, I'm not entirely sure that anyone of sound mind disbelieves in climate change. I do believe, however, that there is a great disparity in the views on that changes cause.

I wish

"On the question of whether they believed the effects of global warming were already happening, the percentage of self-identified Republicans or conservatives answering "yes" plummeted from almost 50 percent in 2007-2008 to 30 percent or less in 2010, while liberals and Democrats remained at 70 percent or more, according to the study in this spring's Sociological Quarterly."

But the point was, people deny all kinds of stuff, against mountains of evidence, and they do it all the time. It seems strange to pick on this one kind of denial while it's entirely acceptable to say you don't think dinosaurs existed millions of years ago.

[Shofercia]

And this figure is the result of..?

This little thing called "Democide" happens to be quite real
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

Thing is, irrespective of what certain "historians" say, we don't actually believe that you can kill someone until the sperm meets the egg.

It's dumb to deny it, but you can't ban stupidity.

I don't see why it's special. Some people deny the holocaust, some deny global climate change, some deny evolution. They're equally stupid and unsupportable positions, but only one of them is socially unacceptable.

Is there a difference between calling a straight person a Fag, and a gay person, a Fag? Is there a difference between calling a white guy, a Nigger, and a black person, a Nigger? If you believe that there's no difference, we have nothing to discuss. If you believe that there is a difference, all you have to do is to simply analogize. Holocaust Denial is only banned where it was actually committed.

That's what it boils down to. Genocide implies a deliberate attempt to eliminate a race, ethnic group, or some other class of people.

The reason so many people died under Stalin was because of an extremely totalitarian government and shitty economic planning. Tragic? Yes. Wrong? Yes. But not the same as a genocide.

Ignoring, of course, the fact that Stalin spent day and night with a check board of all the names of people in the Ukraine, putting a check by random names he didn't like to have them executed.

Genocide is about people, not about locations. Otherwise, the US should be sued for the "Genocides" of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. See the difference?

[Grave_n_idle]

Is there a difference between calling a straight person a Fag, and a gay person, a Fag? Is there a difference between calling a white guy, a Nigger, and a black person, a Nigger? If you believe that there's no difference, we have nothing to discuss. If you believe that there is a difference, all you have to do is to simply analogize. Holocaust Denial is only banned where it was actually committed.

If you have a point to make, then make it - because it looks like emotional bullshit.

I'm being entirely logical - if denying things that have mountains of evidence is bad, then it's bad all across the board. If we allow it in general, it's hypocritical to deny it in just one case.

[New Sapienta]

Ignoring, of course, the fact that Stalin spent day and night with a check board of all the names of people in the Ukraine, putting a check by random names he didn't like to have them executed.

Genocide is about people, not about locations. Otherwise, the US should be sued for the "Genocides" of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. See the difference?

Except Ukrainians were persecuted and executed simply for being Ukrainian, and due to the USSR's surprisingly good records system, it was easy to determine who's parents were Ukrainians.

[Shofercia]

Is there a difference between calling a straight person a Fag, and a gay person, a Fag? Is there a difference between calling a white guy, a Nigger, and a black person, a Nigger? If you believe that there's no difference, we have nothing to discuss. If you believe that there is a difference, all you have to do is to simply analogize. Holocaust Denial is only banned where it was actually committed.

If you have a point to make, then make it - because it looks like emotional bullshit.

I'm being entirely logical - if denying things that have mountains of evidence is bad, then it's bad all across the board. If we allow it in general, it's hypocritical to deny it in just one case.

The point is simple. There are people who lived through the Holocaust. There are descendants of those people too. Any mention about Holocaust Denial, traumatizes that specific group of people, and achieves nothing else. On the other hand, one's relatives were not mercilessly whacked by global warming, merely because of who they were. Do you still not comprehend the difference? And yes, it is emotional. But it ain't bullshit. And going around the World saying that "we do it this way, so should you" is the best route to being stereotyped as the ignorant American.

[Levensworth]

God and the holocaust are both fabricated myths.

[Grave_n_idle]

If you have a point to make, then make it - because it looks like emotional bullshit.

I'm being entirely logical - if denying things that have mountains of evidence is bad, then it's bad all across the board. If we allow it in general, it's hypocritical to deny it in just one case.

The point is simple. There are people who lived through the Holocaust. There are descendants of those people too. Any mention about Holocaust Denial, traumatizes that specific group of people, and achieves nothing else. On the other hand, one's relatives were not mercilessly whacked by global warming, merely because of who they were. Do you still not comprehend the difference? And yes, it is emotional. But it ain't bullshit. And going around the World saying that "we do it this way, so should you" is the best route to being stereotyped as the ignorant American.

I have no idea what you're talking about, I'm far from 'the stereotypical ignorant American', and I'm not sure what your 'we do it this way, so should you' rambling is even supposed to be about.

Did people live through the holocaust? Sure. Are there people living today who are descendents of people who lived through (or died during) the holocaust? Sure.

And?

Either it's okay to deny stuff that has overwhelming evidence, or it's not - that's not a difficult concept to grasp.

I think it's okay. I think it makes those people look pretty silly, but I think it's their right to look silly.

As long as we allow people to deny climate change, evolution, or the existence of rape, or any of a million other stupid things that people say every day - I don't see why we shouldn't allow people to deny the holocaust.

It doesn't bother me.

[Shofercia]

The point is simple. There are people who lived through the Holocaust. There are descendants of those people too. Any mention about Holocaust Denial, traumatizes that specific group of people, and achieves nothing else. On the other hand, one's relatives were not mercilessly whacked by global warming, merely because of who they were. Do you still not comprehend the difference? And yes, it is emotional. But it ain't bullshit. And going around the World saying that "we do it this way, so should you" is the best route to being stereotyped as the ignorant American.

I have no idea what you're talking about, I'm far from 'the stereotypical ignorant American', and I'm not sure what your 'we do it this way, so should you' rambling is even supposed to be about.

Did people live through the holocaust? Sure. Are there people living today who are descendents of people who lived through (or died during) the holocaust? Sure.

And?

Either it's okay to deny stuff that has overwhelming evidence, or it's not - that's not a difficult concept to grasp.

I think it's okay. I think it makes those people look pretty silly, but I think it's their right to look silly.

As long as we allow people to deny climate change, evolution, or the existence of rape, or any of a million other stupid things that people say every day - I don't see why we shouldn't allow people to deny the holocaust.

It doesn't bother me.

But it bothers some of those who lived through it, and some of their descendants, and they shouldn't have to live with that bullshit, which is why I'm perfectly fine with Europe banning Holocaust Denial. The World doesn't revolve around you.

On the other hand, climate change didn't try to commit Genocide. I'm white, and straight, so I don't care if others call me a Fag or a Nigger. Does this mean that it's now acceptable for racists to call blacks/gays by those, deliberately derogatory, names?

[Eucadian Federation]

It's like saying that 9/11 never happened.

-__-

[Grave_n_idle]

But it bothers some of those who lived through it, and some of their descendants, and they shouldn't have to live with that bullshit, which is why I'm perfectly fine with Europe banning Holocaust Denial.

We're currently living through climate change - and that has the potential to kill us all. Shouldn't denying that be a worse 'crime' than denying the holocaust, which only killed a few millions?

You're not making any sense - why shouldn't they have to 'live with that bullshit'? You've not explained why this particular denial of evidence is different or worse than any other - and that means it's just hypocrisy.

The World doesn't revolve around you.

Make up your mind - I thought it was people just like me that mattered - to the extent that you're willing to back LAWS to block denial?

On the other hand, climate change didn't try to commit Genocide. I'm white, and straight, so I don't care if others call me a Fag or a Nigger. Does this mean that it's now acceptable for racists to call blacks/gays by those, deliberately derogatory, names?

And again, I feel like you're fumbling blindly towards some sort of point here, but I'm really not seeing the parallel between denying the holocaust and calling someone a nigger.

[Grave_n_idle]

It's like saying that 9/11 never happened.

-__-

People do.

[Shofercia]

But it bothers some of those who lived through it, and some of their descendants, and they shouldn't have to live with that bullshit, which is why I'm perfectly fine with Europe banning Holocaust Denial.

We're currently living through climate change - and that has the potential to kill us all. Shouldn't denying that be a worse 'crime' than denying the holocaust, which only killed a few millions?

You're not making any sense - why shouldn't they have to 'live with that bullshit'? You've not explained why this particular denial of evidence is different or worse than any other - and that means it's just hypocrisy.

Has the potential is not the same as actually happened. Feel free to grasp that point at your earliest convenience.

The World doesn't revolve around you.

Make up your mind - I thought it was people just like me that mattered - to the extent that you're willing to back LAWS to block denial?

When did I say that you mattered? Why do you think you matter?

On the other hand, climate change didn't try to commit Genocide. I'm white, and straight, so I don't care if others call me a Fag or a Nigger. Does this mean that it's now acceptable for racists to call blacks/gays by those, deliberately derogatory, names?

And again, I feel like you're fumbling blindly towards some sort of point here, but I'm really not seeing the parallel between denying the holocaust and calling someone a nigger.

Both are insults on the basis of ethnicity/race. Is that really too hard for you to grasp?

[Regnum Dominae]

God and the holocaust are both fabricated myths.

Levensworth
Political Columnist

Posts: 3
Founded: May 16, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Yeah, I don't think I should take anything you say seriously.

[Shofercia]

God and the holocaust are both fabricated myths.

Levensworth
Political Columnist

Posts: 3
Founded: May 16, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Yeah, I don't think I should take anything you say seriously.

It's summer!

[Grave_n_idle]

Has the potential is not the same as actually happened. Feel free to grasp that point at your earliest convenience.

You're not making a point.

You have yet to explain any logical reason why it's okay to stop people making one kind of argument of denial of massive amounts of evidence, but perfectly okay for other denials in the face of massive amount of evidence to continue.

All I see is hypocrisy. I've seen no actual argument.

When did I say that you mattered? Why do you think you matter?

Aren't you saying that the people that matter here are the people who either lived through the holocaust, or are descendents of them?

Both are insults on the basis of ethnicity/race.

No, they aren't.

'Nigger' is an insult based on ethnicity/race.

'The holocaust never happened' is not an insult.

[Occupied Deutschland]

But it bothers some of those who lived through it (1), and some of their descendants (2), and they shouldn't have to live with that bullshit (3), which is why I'm perfectly fine with Europe banning Holocaust Denial. The World doesn't revolve around you.(4)

On the other hand, climate change didn't try to commit Genocide (5). I'm white, and straight, so I don't care if others call me a Fag or a Nigger. Does this mean that it's now acceptable for racists to call blacks/gays by those, deliberately derogatory, names? (6)

1) Many things bother many people. Sometimes what bothers people is based in fact, sometimes it's not. Denying them the right to express their bother with it is doing nothing to confront the misinformation they received (because despite it's ban there are still those who don't think it happened aren't there?) and is just pawning it off like banning people from saying it in public somehow makes a difference.

2) See above. Also: So what?

3) Why not? People of all kinds have to live with all kinds of bullshit people without information say or express about them and/or other things. What makes this particular bullshit special as compared to other bullshits?

4) This is exactly why Holocaust Denial shouldn't be illegal. Yes it's a terrible piece of human history everyone should recognize as one of the pinnacles in human evil, but the world doesn't revolve around people's feelings on the matter no matter how close the tragedy is to them. The world doesn't revolve around a small segment of the population being uneducated dumbfucks.

5) One would say it is currently in the process of doing so. Slower, perhaps, but there's been a lot of speculation about how damaging its effects could be. Primarily involving genocidal-levels of human death.

6) Would you say its okay for people to call you a 'cracker'? Or 'breeder'?

[Mkuki]

Levensworth
Political Columnist

Posts: 3
Founded: May 16, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Yeah, I don't think I should take anything you say seriously.

It's summer!

Is this what Summer is like? Damn, that's annoying.

[Regnum Dominae]

It's like saying that 9/11 never happened.

-__-

People do.

Seriously?

I'm well aware of the delusional conspiracy theories, but I have never heard of anyone saying it DID NOT HAPPEN.

But then there's also that website claiming that Belgium doesn't exist, and there is Time Cube. I guess if people can believe that shit, people can also believe that 9/11 never happened.

[New Sapienta]

People do.

Seriously?

I'm well aware of the delusional conspiracy theories, but I have never heard of anyone saying it DID NOT HAPPEN.

But then there's also that website claiming that Belgium doesn't exist, and there is Time Cube. I guess if people can believe that shit, people can also believe that 9/11 never happened.

The Belgium site is satire.

[Zweite Alaje]

I have no idea what you're talking about, I'm far from 'the stereotypical ignorant American', and I'm not sure what your 'we do it this way, so should you' rambling is even supposed to be about.

Did people live through the holocaust? Sure. Are there people living today who are descendents of people who lived through (or died during) the holocaust? Sure.

And?

Either it's okay to deny stuff that has overwhelming evidence, or it's not - that's not a difficult concept to grasp.

I think it's okay. I think it makes those people look pretty silly, but I think it's their right to look silly.

As long as we allow people to deny climate change, evolution, or the existence of rape, or any of a million other stupid things that people say every day - I don't see why we shouldn't allow people to deny the holocaust.

It doesn't bother me.

But it bothers some of those who lived through it, and some of their descendants, and they shouldn't have to live with that bullshit, which is why I'm perfectly fine with Europe banning Holocaust Denial. The World doesn't revolve around you.

On the other hand, climate change didn't try to commit Genocide. I'm white, and straight, so I don't care if others call me a Fag or a Nigger. Does this mean that it's now acceptable for racists to call blacks/gays by those, deliberately derogatory, names?

I'm black, I don't care if someone calls me a nigger. As long as the other guy doesn't bitch about me using their appropriate slur.

[Eucadian Federation]

People do.

Seriously?

I'm well aware of the delusional conspiracy theories, but I have never heard of anyone saying it DID NOT HAPPEN.

But then there's also that website claiming that Belgium doesn't exist, and there is Time Cube. I guess if people can believe that shit, people can also believe that 9/11 never happened.

I was there.... you know.. in NYC during that time. If someone says that never happened then they need some serious help

[Shofercia]

But it bothers some of those who lived through it (1), and some of their descendants (2), and they shouldn't have to live with that bullshit (3), which is why I'm perfectly fine with Europe banning Holocaust Denial. The World doesn't revolve around you.(4)

On the other hand, climate change didn't try to commit Genocide (5). I'm white, and straight, so I don't care if others call me a Fag or a Nigger. Does this mean that it's now acceptable for racists to call blacks/gays by those, deliberately derogatory, names? (6)

1) Many things bother many people. Sometimes what bothers people is based in fact, sometimes it's not. Denying them the right to express their bother with it is doing nothing to confront the misinformation they received (because despite it's ban there are still those who don't think it happened aren't there?) and is just pawning it off like banning people from saying it in public somehow makes a difference.

2) See above. Also: So what?

3) Why not? People of all kinds have to live with all kinds of bullshit people without information say or express about them and/or other things. What makes this particular bullshit special as compared to other bullshits?

4) This is exactly why Holocaust Denial shouldn't be illegal. Yes it's a terrible piece of human history everyone should recognize as one of the pinnacles in human evil, but the world doesn't revolve around people's feelings on the matter no matter how close the tragedy is to them. The world doesn't revolve around a small segment of the population being uneducated dumbfucks.

5) One would say it is currently in the process of doing so. Slower, perhaps, but there's been a lot of speculation about how damaging its effects could be. Primarily involving genocidal-levels of human death.

6) Would you say its okay for people to call you a 'cracker'? Or 'breeder'?

You do realize that there's a MASSIVE difference between someone trying to wipe out your entire race, and everyday bullshit, right? Additionally, you seem to be rather clueless when it comes to Genocide, because you mention "Genocidal-levels of human deaths". The sheer stupidity of such a statement is quite stunning. If there's a race that only has 10,000 members, and you kill them all, you're a Genocidal Maniac. Similarly, if there's a race that has 10,000,000, and you kill them all, you're a Genocidal Maniac. 10,000 is very different from 10 million, so there's no such thing as "Genocidal levels of human death". And what's a breeder? Someone who produces a progeny?

[Shofercia]

Has the potential is not the same as actually happened. Feel free to grasp that point at your earliest convenience.

You're not making a point.

You have yet to explain any logical reason why it's okay to stop people making one kind of argument of denial of massive amounts of evidence, but perfectly okay for other denials in the face of massive amount of evidence to continue.

All I see is hypocrisy. I've seen no actual argument.

Then you are blind.

When did I say that you mattered? Why do you think you matter?

Aren't you saying that the people that matter here are the people who either lived through the holocaust, or are descendents of them?

I said some of them, yes.

Both are insults on the basis of ethnicity/race.

No, they aren't.

'Nigger' is an insult based on ethnicity/race.

'The holocaust never happened' is not an insult.

It is to some of the people who lived though it. It's like saying that torture awesome to someone who was almost tortured to death.

[Zeraxia]

Denying the Holocaust is like denying that Stark is the best house - it's stupid and ridiculous, but should still be legal.

[Occupied Deutschland]

1) Many things bother many people. Sometimes what bothers people is based in fact, sometimes it's not. Denying them the right to express their bother with it is doing nothing to confront the misinformation they received (because despite it's ban there are still those who don't think it happened aren't there?) and is just pawning it off like banning people from saying it in public somehow makes a difference.

2) See above. Also: So what?

3) Why not? People of all kinds have to live with all kinds of bullshit people without information say or express about them and/or other things. What makes this particular bullshit special as compared to other bullshits?

4) This is exactly why Holocaust Denial shouldn't be illegal. Yes it's a terrible piece of human history everyone should recognize as one of the pinnacles in human evil, but the world doesn't revolve around people's feelings on the matter no matter how close the tragedy is to them. The world doesn't revolve around a small segment of the population being uneducated dumbfucks.

5) One would say it is currently in the process of doing so. Slower, perhaps, but there's been a lot of speculation about how damaging its effects could be. Primarily involving genocidal-levels of human death.

6) Would you say its okay for people to call you a 'cracker'? Or 'breeder'?

You do realize that there's a MASSIVE difference between someone trying to wipe out your entire race, and everyday bullshit, right? Additionally, you seem to be rather clueless when it comes to Genocide, because you mention "Genocidal-levels of human deaths". The sheer stupidity of such a statement is quite stunning. If there's a race that only has 10,000 members, and you kill them all, you're a Genocidal Maniac. Similarly, if there's a race that has 10,000,000, and you kill them all, you're a Genocidal Maniac. 10,000 is very different from 10 million, so there's no such thing as "Genocidal levels of human death". And what's a breeder? Someone who produces a progeny?

I was using 'genocide' as a contextual stand-in for Holocaust. Pardon me. People have said that Global Warming will lead to millions of human deaths.

How is Holocaust denial equivalent to wiping out a race? Now, there's no doubt the majority of people with such an opinion think the race should be wiped out, but here again what justifies shutting up this particular brand of bullshit they spout and not other brands spouted by other people?