Discussion Thread for Nelson Mandela's Health

[Charlotte Ryberg]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-23181352

I should point out that the topic is linked to a family dispute in respect of where the three children of Mandela should be buried.

do not think that it is wise to go too deep into the dispute because of the possibly weak connection. Just to confirm, Mandela remains critical but stable. However, according to Al-Jazeera at http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/20 ... 77524.html, he is on life support (according to one of Mandela's daughters).

[Regnum Dominae]

In response to Hippo's question from another thread:

I certainly don't support the slaughter of innocents, but I believe that a lot of what you are calling "terrorism" is actually legitimate armed struggle against the oppressive apartheid regime.

I also find it hypocritical (Hippocritical?) that you justify massacres like My Lai which are basically massive collateral damage, but when the collateral damage is caused by actions against a regime you like, you suddenly find it horrifying.

Oh, and I see no connecting between Mandela and the Church Street bombing.

Still waiting.

[Charlotte Ryberg]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-23349739

There is now a significant update to the current situation on this thread - I am pleased to say that Nelson Mandela, although still in hospital, has made it to his 95th year. The current status is that his health is steadily improving, according to official sources. Thursday also is the 15th anniversary of the Nelson and Graces's marriage.

Happy Birthday Nelson Mandela – Discuss away.

[Lydenburg]

Can't believe I missed this thread until now.

Let's face it, when Mandela walked a free man into the cameras back in '91, the entire world was shouting his praises. He was and still is a legend, an icon, of what the world regards as a major victory over her greatest evil. Needless to say, this continues to be true in RSA more than anywhere else. Mandela is considered by many to be the "George Washington" of this country since he founded over its rebirth and saw the Nats out of power.

Unfortunately, what many people missed at the time is that apartheid wasn't the greatest evil in the world. It wasn't even the greatest evil in Africa. As I've mentioned on a previous occasion, between 1981 and 1987 more Zimbabweans were murdered by Robert Mugabe's post-colonial regime than the South African security forces were able to kill in four decades*. Likewise, Idi Amin and Kenneth Kaunda were also dictators who both opposed apartheid and committed mass murders which far outstripped the SA government in terms of body count*. And I do believe that one reason they ganged up on South Africa was to remove the media spotlight from their own gross denial of freedoms - a very shrewd political tactic. It worked, hey? Everybody - including many South Africans - were convinced that apartheid was the worst, never mind the fact that the black governments which had replaced white rule elsewhere were indulging in far more serious atrocities freely ignored by the West.

That being said - at the risk of sounding sacrilegious - I think that getting Madiba out of Robben Island shouldn't have been the absolute most of everybody's concerns.

Regarding the charges I've seen posed on this thread about terrorism - yes, the ANC was a communist-leaning, pro-Marxist, organisation. Let's not forget that Mandela authored How to be a good communist before his imprisonment. But let's not also forget that he was an incredibly intelligent man. Years later, he was to remark, "Who is to say that the communists were using me, or I was using the communists?" I think that he accepted aid from the Soviet Union simply because nothing material was forthcoming from the West, like Fidel Castro or Ho Chi Minh. Countries like the United States or Britain would pet him on the head, but they wouldn't give him guns - it may have bred resentment ("...the people of Asia and Africa have seen through the slanderous campaign conducted by the U.S.A. against the Socialist countries. They know that their independence is threatened not by any of the countries in the Socialist camp but by the U.S.A., who has surrounded their continent with military bases. The Communist bogey is an American stunt to distract the attention of the people of Africa from the real issue facing them, namely, American imperialism...."*). It was eventually the USSR which provided most of the ANC's small arms, explosives, anti-personnel mines, and detonation timers. ANC operatives frequently worked out of Marxist states such as Angola, Zimbabwe, and Mozambique.

To be fair, when most of the violence was carried out in the 1980s, Mandela cannot be held responsible. He was breaking rocks, after all. The ANC at large, however, is certainly not blameless. From 1986 to about 1991, the majority of their victims were black South Africans, who had simply failed to relate with the Struggle or were Inkatha loyalists. They seemed to coercing people everywhere at once. I've been told that Xhosa employees of security companies in Jo-burg used to keep portraits of Karl Marx in their footlockers next to their Jesus icons because their ANC rep "told them to"; an indication of how much influence they were able to exert beyond their means.

Mandela was democratically elected, I will give him that. RSA's elections in '94 brought together every race under his name, and he didn't even have to intimidate his opponents like Robert Mugabe did in '80. It was a peaceful election, especially for Africa. Not everybody cheated.

The problem is that Mandela, despite his likeable personality, actually achieved relatively little in his career as president. We credit him with "moving away from apartheid", but did he really? Post-apartheid integration problems were still at the top of the list years later when Zuma arrived in office. During the late 1990s, the crime rate started to skyrocket. Mandela needlessly associated RSA with dictators like Castro, Qaddafi, and Saddam Hussein. Well into the 2000s he continued to flog the dead apartheid horse when he should have been encouraging later governments to actually deal with contemporary issues instead of blaming their racist whites for everything (including HIV).

So why do I respect Nelson Mandela? Why should I?

Here's why: RSA needed a leader to lead us out of our darkest hour. I can criticise Mandela's politics all I want, but he was there when the country needed him most. I can't think for a more suitable face which could have so decisively united the people while Congo-esque ethnic violence or even civil war was such a real possibility.

And that's why I'm worried about what happens when he goes. This is Africa, folks. Anybody from a witch doctor to an MP could exploit such a heady emotional atmosphere. We need to hope for the best whenever he passes, lest his moderation dies with him.

---

*HRC states that 7,000 people were killed between 1948 and 1991, when apartheid was abolished. In Zim, Bob killed between 20,000 and 30,000 during Gukurahundi.

*"Politics and Government in African States", by Peter Duignan

*"The Struggle Is My Life", by Nelson Mandela

[Aquafireland]

Poor guy. He's going to die very soon, but I hope he lives the last years of his life in peace and prosperity.