Should men have a choice in abortion?

[Divair]

It's a shit source.

It is still a source is it not? You did not specify that you wanted a good one.

It is a given on NSG that when someone asks for a source, you provide a good one.

[The Rich Port]

A. That's biased as fuck. Fox news does not a source make.
B. No babies or children were involved there, so no, you're wrong.

You asked him for a source, he gave you one. What is the problem here?

It's a piece of shit source.

You don't link to a picture of a piece of shit when you ask for a source and accept it, do you?

[Ovisterra]

It's a shit source.

It is still a source is it not? You did not specify that you wanted a good one.

No. Presenting a shit source is tantamount to not presenting a source.

[Partially Blind People]

As a female, I'd have to say it depends on the situation. In the case of sexual abuse or incest? Oh god no, that motherfucker gets NOTHING.

In cases of health issues? I'd say no, because the woman's health is at risk

However, if this is a matter of just a regular pregnancy that isn't what they wanted, then... yeah. He should get a say, because he hasn't been abusive, and this child is just as much his as hers.

^^Exactly

[Frisivisia]

It's a shit source.

It is still a source is it not? You did not specify that you wanted a good one.

I may get a silver medal of debating for this, but . I didn't want to do that. Why did you make me do that?

[The Archregimancy]

I would rather think it would very much depend on the nature of the relationship that produced the pregnancy.

Or has NSG completely abandoned nuance in favour of unwavering moral absolutes again?

NSG debates are very much like films from the 30s.

Black and white, poor quality, and become incredibly tedious in a short space of time.

And, on the basis of the other reactions to my post, subject to selective misinterpretation if it helps make a rhetorical point.

[Aurora Novus]

Well, despite the fact that I'm opposed to abortion except in certain cases, in the case of abortion as birth control, yes, the man should have a choice. It's his kid. The mother doesn't own the baby by herself. That's ridiculous. That's like a guy in half ownership of a house with his wife, then the wife burning it down. Sure, the wife owned half, but so did the husband. He has a say.

Neither "own" the kid. It's not their property.

What is someone's property however, is the woman's womb. And guess who owns it? The woman, no one else. No one has, or at least, should have the right to force something inside of it. That violates her right to bodily autonomy, which is the whole reason we have abortion to begin with.

[Divair]

As a female, I'd have to say it depends on the situation. In the case of sexual abuse or incest? Oh god no, that motherfucker gets NOTHING.

In cases of health issues? I'd say no, because the woman's health is at risk

However, if this is a matter of just a regular pregnancy that isn't what they wanted, then... yeah. He should get a say, because he hasn't been abusive, and this child is just as much his as hers.

Imagine this scenario:

Women wants to abort.
Man does not.
They will not compromise under any circumstances.

What do?

[Shallowell]

Very well.

A news article, about an abortion. The child is killed.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/05/16/fl ... tion-drug/

A. That's biased as fuck. Fox news does not a source make.
B. No babies or children were involved there, so no, you're wrong.

You asked for a source, news article or medical journal or something. This, my friend, is a news article. Just because it says something that goes against your argument doesn't mean you can just ignore it.

Also, it says, right in the first paragraph, that the unborn child was killed.

Any more questions?

[Choronzon]

Wait, an obviously partisan news organization writing a news article using the word "child" when discussing an abortion is proof positive that fetus = child now?

[Conscentia]

As a female, I'd have to say it depends on the situation. In the case of sexual abuse or incest? Oh god no, that motherfucker gets NOTHING.

In cases of health issues? I'd say no, because the woman's health is at risk

However, if this is a matter of just a regular pregnancy that isn't what they wanted, then... yeah. He should get a say, because he hasn't been abusive, and this child is just as much his as hers.

The embryo isn't a piece of property. It's neither hers nor his.
You know what is hers? Her womb. If she doesn't want a child, and the guy does, even if he hasn't been abusive, he get's no say because he doesn't own her womb.

[Madredia]

I personally think abortion should be illegal but thats besides the point here. Supposing I thought it should be legal, I would say that if a mother wants to abort her child she should have to have the father of the child's signature to do so. If there is a disagreement, then it should be settled in court. The whole "her body her choice" argument would make sense if we were really just talking about her body, but we're not, we're talking about a being that has a split genetic code of both parents. That is a fact thats independent of who's carrying the child. The fetus is as much the man's custody as a full grown child would be. And please lets not make this a "woman's rights" issue. Not every issue that involves women is a "women's rights issue". This is a universal issue.

EDIT: If I leave my 500,000 dollar car parked in your drive way, can you destroy the car because its in your driveway?

[Divair]

Wait, an obviously partisan news organization writing a news article using the word "child" when discussing an abortion is proof positive that fetus = child now?

Apparently.

[Algonquin Ascendancy]

I answered it twice.

Very well.

A news article, about an abortion. The child is killed.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/05/16/fl ... tion-drug/

Wrong. A fetus was killed, not a child.

Son of Florida fertility doctor accused of killing ex-girlfriend's fetus with abortion drug.

[Ovisterra]

A. That's biased as fuck. Fox news does not a source make.
B. No babies or children were involved there, so no, you're wrong.

You asked for a source, news article or medical journal or something. This, my friend, is a news article. Just because it says something that goes against your argument doesn't mean you can just ignore it.

Also, it says, right in the first paragraph, that the unborn child was killed.

I ignore it because it's Fox News.

If Fox News said I'd won the lottery, I wouldn't trust Fox News.

Any more questions?

Yes. Do you have an actual credible source, and if so, will you show it to me?

[Partially Blind People]

It is still a source is it not? You did not specify that you wanted a good one.

No. Presenting a shit source is tantamount to not presenting a source.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10057946/Abortion-doctor-convicted-of-killing-three-babies-spared-the-death-penalty.html

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/what-to-do-when-your-girlfriend-wife-wants-to-abort-your-baby

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/u-s-abortion-doctor-convicted-of-killing-babies-agrees-to-forgo-appeal-1.1281422

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/15/philadelphia-abortion-doctor-kermit-gosnell-sentenced-life

Granted 3 of them are about the same story but they all say you are killing babies.

[Frisivisia]

A. That's biased as fuck. Fox news does not a source make.
B. No babies or children were involved there, so no, you're wrong.

You asked for a source, news article or medical journal or something. This, my friend, is a news article. Just because it says something that goes against your argument doesn't mean you can just ignore it.

Also, it says, right in the first paragraph, that the unborn child was killed.

Any more questions?

YOU DIDNT WANT A GOOD SOURCE, SO I USE MY FRIEND TOMMY. TOMMY SAYS THE WORLDS FLAT AND HES GOD.

[Frisivisia]

No. Presenting a shit source is tantamount to not presenting a source.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10057946/Abortion-doctor-convicted-of-killing-three-babies-spared-the-death-penalty.html

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/what-to-do-when-your-girlfriend-wife-wants-to-abort-your-baby

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/u-s-abortion-doctor-convicted-of-killing-babies-agrees-to-forgo-appeal-1.1281422

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/15/philadelphia-abortion-doctor-kermit-gosnell-sentenced-life

Granted 3 of them are about the same story but they all say you are killing babies.

Misuse does not make things so. Fetuses are, by definition, not babies. I don't know how many times this needs to be said.

[Ovisterra]

No. Presenting a shit source is tantamount to not presenting a source.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10057946/Abortion-doctor-convicted-of-killing-three-babies-spared-the-death-penalty.html

Says nothing on the subject.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/what-to-do-when-your-girlfriend-wife-wants-to-abort-your-baby

There's an ad at the top saying "let's end abortion".

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/u-s-abortion-doctor-convicted-of-killing-babies-agrees-to-forgo-appeal-1.1281422

See the first one.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/15/philadelphia-abortion-doctor-kermit-gosnell-sentenced-life

See previous.

Granted 3 of them are about the same story but they all say you are killing babies.

Did you actually read them?

[Esparmuran]

You asked for a source, news article or medical journal or something. This, my friend, is a news article. Just because it says something that goes against your argument doesn't mean you can just ignore it.

Also, it says, right in the first paragraph, that the unborn child was killed.

Any more questions?

YOU DIDNT WANT A GOOD SOURCE, SO I USE MY FRIEND TOMMY. TOMMY SAYS THE WORLDS FLAT AND HES GOD.

Tommyism.

[Partially Blind People]

As a female, I'd have to say it depends on the situation. In the case of sexual abuse or incest? Oh god no, that motherfucker gets NOTHING.

In cases of health issues? I'd say no, because the woman's health is at risk

However, if this is a matter of just a regular pregnancy that isn't what they wanted, then... yeah. He should get a say, because he hasn't been abusive, and this child is just as much his as hers.

The embryo isn't a piece of property. It's neither hers nor his.
You know what is hers? Her womb. If she doesn't want a child, and the guy does, even if he hasn't been abusive, he get's no say because he doesn't own her womb.

No, but for treatment to happen, it must have the consent of the patient/s (the mother and foetus) providing they have mental capacity (know what they are doing). The foetus doesn't have mental capacity and therefore the decision for that patient's treatment passes to the parents. Both mother and father.

[The Rich Port]

As a female, I'd have to say it depends on the situation. In the case of sexual abuse or incest? Oh god no, that motherfucker gets NOTHING.

In cases of health issues? I'd say no, because the woman's health is at risk

However, if this is a matter of just a regular pregnancy that isn't what they wanted, then... yeah. He should get a say, because he hasn't been abusive, and this child is just as much his as hers.

... I honestly don't understand how that would work.

What do you mean the man should "get a say"?

That the man can STOP an abortion, even when the woman wants to abort?

How is that bodily sovereignty when another person has a say in what you do with your body?

[Shallowell]

Wait, an obviously partisan news organization writing a news article using the word "child" when discussing an abortion is proof positive that fetus = child now?

Apparently.

Ovisterra asked for a news article. Sorry it doesn't support your argument.

[Mollary]

No. If it went like that with only two votes it wouldn't work unless both agreed. With that one of the partners must have final say and it should be the woman because she is the one who has to carry the thing for 9 months and then give birth to it.

[Partially Blind People]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10057946/Abortion-doctor-convicted-of-killing-three-babies-spared-the-death-penalty.html

Says nothing on the subject.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/what-to-do-when-your-girlfriend-wife-wants-to-abort-your-baby

There's an ad at the top saying "let's end abortion".

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/u-s-abortion-doctor-convicted-of-killing-babies-agrees-to-forgo-appeal-1.1281422

See the first one.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/15/philadelphia-abortion-doctor-kermit-gosnell-sentenced-life

See previous.

Granted 3 of them are about the same story but they all say you are killing babies.

Did you actually read them?

No, but they all say that abortion kills babies. I have fulfilled your demands and presented you with 4 sources that say abortion kills babies.