Should men have a choice in abortion?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

It's not irresponsible to not go through a procedure they don't want.

It is utterly irresponsible for them not to protect themselves and then claim "oh poor me" to any of us more rational people when the girl is giving them hell to be the parent when he could have avoided this by using some sort of protection and being explicit about his intentions with her, that he wanted a booty call and not to be the parent of any brat.

There's the difference.

He should still not be forced into parenthood. End of story. A woman is not forced into parenthood. He shouldn't be forced into it, either.
Consent to sex =/= Consent to pregnancy.
You are literally using the SAME argument as pro-lifers.

It is quite different.

I am not saying it isn't his right not to be a parent. It certainly is his right to do whatever the hell he wants.

I am just saying I would not agree with such person when they were stupid enough to go "I didn't use a condom or anything" to me when they very damn well know the risks of unprotected sex. He should not be forced into parenthood, but I should also not be forced on feeling empathy for him.

[Ostroeuropa]

He should still not be forced into parenthood. End of story. A woman is not forced into parenthood. He shouldn't be forced into it, either.
Consent to sex =/= Consent to pregnancy.
You are literally using the SAME argument as pro-lifers.

It is quite different.

I am not saying it isn't his right not to be a parent. It certainly is his right to do whatever the hell he wants.

I am just saying I would not agree with such person when they were stupid enough to go "I didn't use a condom or anything" to me when they very damn well know the risks of unprotected sex. He should not be forced into parenthood, but I should also not be forced on feeling empathy for him.

Good enough.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

He should still not be forced into parenthood. End of story. A woman is not forced into parenthood. He shouldn't be forced into it, either.
Consent to sex =/= Consent to pregnancy.
You are literally using the SAME argument as pro-lifers.

It is quite different.

I am not saying it isn't his right not to be a parent. It certainly is his right to do whatever the hell he wants.

I am just saying I would not agree with such person when they were stupid enough to go "I didn't use a condom or anything" to me when they very damn well know the risks of unprotected sex. He should not be forced into parenthood, but I should also not be forced on feeling empathy for him.

Ok. That's fine not to respect the choices someone makes.

[Camelza]

No, not at all, it's far too serious for a woman's body and psychology for a man to have a say in it, or any other individual in general.
Men however, should be forced to help economicaly (at least) the pregnant woman as they have 50% repsonsibility(except in the case of rape, then they have 100% responsibility and along with their punishment, a sum should be taken from their property in order to pay for the abortion, or the raising of the child).

[Ostroeuropa]

No, not at all, it's far too serious for a woman's body and psychology for a man to have a say in it, or any other individual in general.
Men however, should be forced to help economicaly (at least) the pregnant woman as they have 50% repsonsibility(except in the case of rape, then they have 100% responsibility and along with their punishment, a sum should be taken from their property in order to pay for the abortion, or the raising of the child).

Forced economically how exactly. I'm fine with them paying for half of the pregnancy costs, but I see no reason they should have to pay for the child once born if they don't want to.

[AiliailiA]

As for the unplanned pregnancy issue, if you have unprotected sex you pretty much know, 100%, you will have a child regardless,

Where did you get that from? School?

No. It's not even true that repeated acts between the same partners will approach 100%. One or both of them might be infertile.

Infertility means not being able to get pregnant after one year of trying. Or, six months, if a woman is 35 years of age or older. Women who can get pregnant but are unable to stay pregnant may also be infertile.
...
About 10 % of women (6.1 million) in the United States ages 15–44 years have difficulty getting pregnant or staying pregnant.

Considering that men can be sterile without knowing it too, the odds go down to 85%. That's having sex with the same partner regularly for a year.

The likelihood of a single act of unprotected sex leading to pregnancy is very low. But it varies so widely depending on who in involved, it could be anywhere from 0% to 40% but with the peak skewed towards the low end, about 3%. It's too varied to put a number on, to use in all cases: you should research it yourself if you want to use one firm number in future.

It is NOT 100%.

so why make an excuse for it? I am not saying they should be forced into being parents, but a person like that should also not expect my empathy.

It's always good to have empathy. Whether you feel sympathy is another matter.

[Camelza]

No, not at all, it's far too serious for a woman's body and psychology for a man to have a say in it, or any other individual in general.
Men however, should be forced to help economicaly (at least) the pregnant woman as they have 50% repsonsibility(except in the case of rape, then they have 100% responsibility and along with their punishment, a sum should be taken from their property in order to pay for the abortion, or the raising of the child).

Forced economically how exactly. I'm fine with them paying for half of the pregnancy costs, but I see no reason they should have to pay for the child once born if they don't want to.

That's why I said pregnant woman ...meaning they should help with the costly seminars, nutrition, doctor visits and birth, or simply the abortion and counselling and psychological support if afterwards needed.

In the case of rape it's completely different.

[Ostroeuropa]

Forced economically how exactly. I'm fine with them paying for half of the pregnancy costs, but I see no reason they should have to pay for the child once born if they don't want to.

That's why I said pregnant woman ...meaning they should help with the costly seminars, nutrition, doctor visits and birth, or simply the abortion and counselling and psychological support if afterwards needed.

Fine by me.

[Zottistan]

No, not at all, it's far too serious for a woman's body and psychology for a man to have a say in it, or any other individual in general.
Men however, should be forced to help economicaly (at least) the pregnant woman as they have 50% repsonsibility(except in the case of rape, then they have 100% responsibility and along with their punishment, a sum should be taken from their property in order to pay for the abortion, or the raising of the child).

Men don't have any responsibility in a pro-choice nation.

Who decided in the end to keep the child?

[Gideus]

Men should have no voice in determining if the woman gets an abortion.

At the same time, the man should not be forced to pay, be with the child, or anything else. I believe this is what is called a "paper abortion."

While we're on the subject, there shouldn't be a bias in courts towards women winning custody of children.

But no, for the main topic of the thread, men should have no say in the abortion. And I say this as a very straight, very cisgendered white male.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

As for the unplanned pregnancy issue, if you have unprotected sex you pretty much know, 100%, you will have a child regardless,

Where did you get that from? School?

No. It's not even true that repeated acts between the same partners will approach 100%. One or both of them might be infertile.

Infertility means not being able to get pregnant after one year of trying. Or, six months, if a woman is 35 years of age or older. Women who can get pregnant but are unable to stay pregnant may also be infertile.
...
About 10 % of women (6.1 million) in the United States ages 15–44 years have difficulty getting pregnant or staying pregnant.

Considering that men can be sterile without knowing it too, the odds go down to 85%. That's having sex with the same partner regularly for a year.

The likelihood of a single act of unprotected sex leading to pregnancy is very low. But it varies so widely depending on who in involved, it could be anywhere from 0% to 40% but with the peak skewed towards the low end, about 3%. It's too varied to put a number on, to use in all cases: you should research it yourself if you want to use one firm number in future.

It is NOT 100%.

so why make an excuse for it? I am not saying they should be forced into being parents, but a person like that should also not expect my empathy.

It's always good to have empathy. Whether you feel sympathy is another matter.

Not considering infertility cases or menopause

And I suppose I misspoke there. However, it is still certain that I would not feel once ounce of "oh you poor thing!" towards them. Ever. They were stupid enough into getting in unprotected sex and get in the situation they are on, let them deal with it on their own, however they choose to do so it's not my concern, as that is the good thing about having options.

[Camelza]

No, not at all, it's far too serious for a woman's body and psychology for a man to have a say in it, or any other individual in general.
Men however, should be forced to help economicaly (at least) the pregnant woman as they have 50% repsonsibility(except in the case of rape, then they have 100% responsibility and along with their punishment, a sum should be taken from their property in order to pay for the abortion, or the raising of the child).

Men don't have any responsibility in a pro-choice nation.

Who decided in the end to keep the child?

Men have no part in decision making regarding this as it's extremely hard for a woman to follow each of the two options, but the man should be obliged to help by paying 50% of all expenses whatever the woman's decision ...it may sound unjust, but it's not.

[Saiwania]

He should still not be forced into parenthood. End of story. A woman is not forced into parenthood. He shouldn't be forced into it, either. Consent to sex =/= Consent to pregnancy. You are literally using the SAME argument as pro-lifers.

If a child is born, the baby still needs to be taken care of. If the father won't at the very least take financial responsibility then who will?

[Ostroeuropa]

He should still not be forced into parenthood. End of story. A woman is not forced into parenthood. He shouldn't be forced into it, either. Consent to sex =/= Consent to pregnancy. You are literally using the SAME argument as pro-lifers.

If a child is born, the baby still need to be taken care of. If the father won't at the very least take financial responsibility than who will?

The people who actually want to raise the child?

[New Sapienta]

Men don't have any responsibility in a pro-choice nation.

Men have no part in decision making, but should be obliged to help by paying 50% of all expenses whatever the woman's decision ...it may sound unjust, but it's not.

It is unjust. Don't try to make it sound like it isn't.

Women get to not have children when pregnancy occurs, but men are just fucked.

[Bombadil]

Women get to not have children when pregnancy occurs, but men are just fucked.

You've just exploded the irony-ometer.

Gratz.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

If a child is born, the baby still need to be taken care of. If the father won't at the very least take financial responsibility than who will?

The people who actually want to raise the child?

No, make the biological parents take care of a child they don't want!!!

[Zottistan]

Who decided in the end to keep the child?

Men have no part in decision making regarding this as it's extremely hard for a woman to follow each of the two options, but the man should be obliged to help by paying 50% of all expenses whatever the woman's decision ...it may sound unjust, but it's not.

On what grounds should he be expected to pay? In the end it was the woman's choice to keep the child, therefore the woman is solely responsible for it.

[Ostroeuropa]

Men have no part in decision making, but should be obliged to help by paying 50% of all expenses whatever the woman's decision ...it may sound unjust, but it's not.

It is unjust. Don't try to make it sound like it isn't.

Women get to not have children when pregnancy occurs, but men are just fucked.

He's talking about medical expenses resulting from the pregnancy.
It seems entirely reasonable to expect the man to pay for half of the abortion costs, or the birthing costs.
But not to actually pay for the child if they dont want to.

[New Sapienta]

Women get to not have children when pregnancy occurs, but men are just fucked.

You've just exploded the irony-ometer.

Gratz.

Hehehehehehe

[New Sapienta]

It is unjust. Don't try to make it sound like it isn't.

Women get to not have children when pregnancy occurs, but men are just fucked.

He's talking about medical expenses resulting from the pregnancy.
It seems entirely reasonable to expect the man to pay for half of the abortion costs, or the birthing costs.
But not to actually pay for the child if they dont want to.

Pregnancy is reasonable, parenthood after isn't.

If he only advocates pregnancy costs, than that is fine.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

Men should have no voice in determining if the woman gets an abortion.

At the same time, the man should not be forced to pay, be with the child, or anything else. I believe this is what is called a "paper abortion."

While we're on the subject, there shouldn't be a bias in courts towards women winning custody of children.

But no, for the main topic of the thread, men should have no say in the abortion. And I say this as a very straight, very cisgendered white male.

Everything you said is perfect.

[Gideus]

He should still not be forced into parenthood. End of story. A woman is not forced into parenthood. He shouldn't be forced into it, either. Consent to sex =/= Consent to pregnancy. You are literally using the SAME argument as pro-lifers.

If a child is born, the baby still needs to be taken care of. If the father won't at the very least take financial responsibility then who will?

The people who are going to accept parenthood. I personally don't think we need more children born at this point, and though I hate to stereotype like this and make blatantly sexist statements, there are women out there who purposely get pregnant to make the man pay child support. It may not be common, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

As others have said, consenting to sex is not equal to consenting to parenthood. This is why I am an advocate for "paper abortions," as I believe they are called, where the man essentially cuts all ties to the child, as well as not being forced, required, or coerced into paying for anything related to the child.

[Camelza]

Men have no part in decision making, but should be obliged to help by paying 50% of all expenses whatever the woman's decision ...it may sound unjust, but it's not.

It is unjust. Don't try to make it sound like it isn't.

Women get to not have children when pregnancy occurs, but men are just fucked.

No, you see ...a man has only to pay for 50% of the expenses of pregnancy, or abortion, while a woman has either to go through a fucking pregnancy or have an abortion which is psychologically devastating and pay for half the expenses ...understood now?

Plus, it's 50% his own fucking responsibility to do so.

[Gideus]

Men should have no voice in determining if the woman gets an abortion.

At the same time, the man should not be forced to pay, be with the child, or anything else. I believe this is what is called a "paper abortion."

While we're on the subject, there shouldn't be a bias in courts towards women winning custody of children.

But no, for the main topic of the thread, men should have no say in the abortion. And I say this as a very straight, very cisgendered white male.

Everything you said is perfect.

Awww, thanks! I got called perfect by Torc!

That's going in my sig.