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The Ten Commandments ...

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Dread Lady Nathicana
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The Ten Commandments ...

Postby Dread Lady Nathicana » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:15 am

The Ten Commandments of Rational Debate

1. Thou shall not attack the person's character, but the argument itself. ("Ad hominem")

2. Thou shall not misrepresent or exaggerate a person's argument in order to make them easier to attack. ("Straw Man Fallacy")

3. Thou shall not use small numbers to represent the whole. ("Hasty Generalization")

4. Thou shall not argue thy position by assuming one of its premises is true. ("Begging the Question")

5. Thou shall not claim that because something occurred before, it must be the cause. ("Post Hoc/False Cause")

6. Thou shall not reduce the argument down to two possibilities. ("False Dichotomy")

7. Thou shall not argue that because of our ignorance, claim must be true or false. ("Ad Ignorantiam")

8. Thou shall not lay the burden of proof onto him that is questioning the claim. ("Burden of Proof Reversal")

9. Thou shall not assume "this" follows "that", when "it" has no logical connection. ("Non Sequitur")

10. Thou shall not claim that because a premises is popular, therefore, it must be true. ("Bandwagon Fallacy")


Yes, yes, a cheap hook, I know.

Seeing this from a friend's Twitter link got me thinking. We debate, discuss, and kick ideas around on this forum all the time. And constantly, we see posts, comments, etc casually dismissed due to one fallacy or other - often 'source', or '$fallacy' being the entirety of a response as if that alone lowers the sword of doom over an opponent's head, figuratively.

Out of curiosity, in your experiences - what problems do we regularly run into here on the forums? What do you think we might do to improve that situation? Does falling back on one of these or other fallacies immediately invalidate an argument, or can it be explained and salvaged? Does the current boundaries encourage or discourage the 'shitposting' we often grouse about, or is that just dealing with 'anyone with a keyboard can and will participate' scenarios? Do we perhaps unwittingly suffer under some of these fallacies ourselves, due to 'groupthink' or other phenomenon?

Myself, yes - I see crazy all the time. I see people who BELIEVE WITHOUT QUESTION what they are saying, regardless of how "..." it may seem to me. (I see others who just troll it up for the lulz too, but that's another discussion entirely.) I think education of those who are unaware is a good first step to improving debate overall. And admittedly, the rose-colored-glasses part of me, however small, thinks that a more welcoming less postcount-measures-worth-obsessive environment might be somewhat helpful. But hey.

I don't want names mentioned - this is not a bitch thread about who's been horrible about what. It's generalized to avoid that sort of train wreck. And no, this is not mod-sanctioned or guided. Just me, as a player, pondering things out of the blue. We're not looking to change rules due to any discussion here that I'm aware of, nor am I inclined to suggest anything like that.

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The Republic of Lanos
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Postby The Republic of Lanos » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:29 am

Even if we were all to adopt these 10 commandments, we'll have people going asshat and not give a fuck.

You can't eliminate stupid.

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The Sector Union
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Postby The Sector Union » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:30 am

The Republic of Lanos wrote:Even if we were all to adopt these 10 commandments, we'll have people going asshat and not give a fuck.

You can't eliminate stupid.


But you can censor stupid.
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Mike the Progressive
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:30 am

These 10 commandments are bad. I like my debates irrational and stupid.

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Dread Lady Nathicana
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Postby Dread Lady Nathicana » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:31 am

The Republic of Lanos wrote:Even if we were all to adopt these 10 commandments, we'll have people going asshat and not give a fuck.

You can't eliminate stupid.

No, no silly. You've mixed that up somehow. It's "You don't fuck crazy" and "give a hoot, don't pollute" ... or something. Wait. I think I lost myself there at some point. >_>

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Of the Free Socialist Territories
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Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:35 am

Mike the Progressive wrote:These 10 commandments are bad. I like my debates irrational and stupid.


So that explains Frost/Nixon...




They're a sensible idea, the Commandments, but there's a snowball's chance in hell of them being followed by everyone. :P
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Forster Keys
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Postby Forster Keys » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:40 am

You don't know what you're talking about, have you ever even debated before, are you saying that this should be the new set of rules for NSG? Everyone here agrees that it's either the status quo, or complete chaos, nothing in between. Becoming more strict in rules is what killed this forum and sent all the good posters away. You can't deny that. The Cat Tribe left and everything. I mean I know this shit, I'm a professional debater, prove me wrong. You can't.
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TaQud
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Postby TaQud » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:40 am

I doubt people would obey ALL the 10 commandments if these were rules on NSG :unsure:
Last edited by TaQud on Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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The Republic of Lanos
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Postby The Republic of Lanos » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:41 am

Forster Keys wrote:You don't know what you're talking about, have you ever even debated before, are you saying that this should be the new set of rules for NSG? Everyone here agrees that it's either the status quo, or complete chaos, nothing in between. Becoming more strict in rules is what killed this forum and sent all the good posters away. You can't deny that. The Cat Tribe left and everything. I mean I know this shit, I'm a professional debater, prove me wrong. You can't.

That's one of many many issues that helped put NSG in its current state.

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Mad hatters in jeans
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Postby Mad hatters in jeans » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:43 am

Forster Keys wrote:You don't know what you're talking about, have you ever even debated before, are you saying that this should be the new set of rules for NSG? Everyone here agrees that it's either the status quo, or complete chaos, nothing in between. Becoming more strict in rules is what killed this forum and sent all the good posters away. You can't deny that. The Cat Tribe left and everything. I mean I know this shit, I'm a professional debater, prove me wrong. You can't.

:lol:
I was meaning to say something similar to this but I couldn't be bothered coming up with all of the fallacies in one. Well played.

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Dread Lady Nathicana
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Postby Dread Lady Nathicana » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:43 am

Um ... no, nowhere have I suggested implementing a Set of Rules for Debate. In fact, I went out of my way to say there was no effort to do that here. This is just about discussion of what fallacies you've noticed as prevalent, etc. Eesh, folks. o_O

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Regnum Dominae
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Postby Regnum Dominae » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:44 am

Forster Keys wrote:You don't know what you're talking about, have you ever even debated before, are you saying that this should be the new set of rules for NSG? Everyone here agrees that it's either the status quo, or complete chaos, nothing in between. Becoming more strict in rules is what killed this forum and sent all the good posters away. You can't deny that. The Cat Tribe left and everything. I mean I know this shit, I'm a professional debater, prove me wrong. You can't.

:lol: I see what you did there.
I support peace in Israel and Palestine. The governments and people in power on all sides are an absolute disgrace, and their unwillingness to pursue peace is a disservice to the people they are meant to be serving. The status quo is not simply untenable; it is unquestionably unacceptable.

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Regnum Dominae
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Postby Regnum Dominae » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:44 am

Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:Um ... no, nowhere have I suggested implementing a Set of Rules for Debate. In fact, I went out of my way to say there was no effort to do that here. This is just about discussion of what fallacies you've noticed as prevalent, etc. Eesh, folks. o_O

Read the ten commandments again, then read Forster's post very closely. :lol:
Last edited by Regnum Dominae on Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
I support peace in Israel and Palestine. The governments and people in power on all sides are an absolute disgrace, and their unwillingness to pursue peace is a disservice to the people they are meant to be serving. The status quo is not simply untenable; it is unquestionably unacceptable.

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Dread Lady Nathicana
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Postby Dread Lady Nathicana » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:45 am

Mad hatters in jeans wrote:
Forster Keys wrote:You don't know what you're talking about, have you ever even debated before, are you saying that this should be the new set of rules for NSG? Everyone here agrees that it's either the status quo, or complete chaos, nothing in between. Becoming more strict in rules is what killed this forum and sent all the good posters away. You can't deny that. The Cat Tribe left and everything. I mean I know this shit, I'm a professional debater, prove me wrong. You can't.

:lol:
I was meaning to say something similar to this but I couldn't be bothered coming up with all of the fallacies in one. Well played.

That was rather good, btw. Yus. ;)

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Forster Keys
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Postby Forster Keys » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:45 am

;)
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TaQud
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Postby TaQud » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:45 am

And I will admit. When I first clicked on this thread, (before reading the OP) I thought this was going to the New Rules of NSG.
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Dread Lady Nathicana
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Postby Dread Lady Nathicana » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:46 am

Regnum Dominae wrote:
Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:Um ... no, nowhere have I suggested implementing a Set of Rules for Debate. In fact, I went out of my way to say there was no effort to do that here. This is just about discussion of what fallacies you've noticed as prevalent, etc. Eesh, folks. o_O

Read the ten commandments again, then read Forster's post very closely. :lol:

Nah, this was further up with folks mentioning 'no one would follow them' - I keep getting delayed in my answers due to this horrible thing called 'work', now that lunch is wrapping up. Gah. The nerve! My pay time edging in on my play time! Really. >_o

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Choronzon
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Postby Choronzon » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:59 am

The most common issue I see is people mistaking discussing the implications of their stance with "strawman."

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The Republic of Lanos
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Postby The Republic of Lanos » Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:00 pm

Choronzon wrote:The most common issue I see is people mistaking discussing the implications of their stance with "strawman."

Or flinging out "strawman!" or "troll!" or "poe!" etc. just to dismiss the other side's argument.

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Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f
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Postby Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f » Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:01 pm

Forster Keys wrote:You don't know what you're talking about, have you ever even debated before, are you saying that this should be the new set of rules for NSG? Everyone here agrees that it's either the status quo, or complete chaos, nothing in between. Becoming more strict in rules is what killed this forum and sent all the good posters away. You can't deny that. The Cat Tribe left and everything. I mean I know this shit, I'm a professional debater, prove me wrong. You can't.


Source?
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Immoren
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Postby Immoren » Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:04 pm

Next we need Leviticus. *nods*
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Forster Keys
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Postby Forster Keys » Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:05 pm

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:
Forster Keys wrote:You don't know what you're talking about, have you ever even debated before, are you saying that this should be the new set of rules for NSG? Everyone here agrees that it's either the status quo, or complete chaos, nothing in between. Becoming more strict in rules is what killed this forum and sent all the good posters away. You can't deny that. The Cat Tribe left and everything. I mean I know this shit, I'm a professional debater, prove me wrong. You can't.


Source?


Typical strawman right there.
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New Libertarian States
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Postby New Libertarian States » Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:11 pm

I see 3 and 8 a lot.
by Liriena » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:25 pm
Do you hear the people sing?
Singing the song of "No one cares".
It is the music of a people
who are sick NK waving its dick.
When the beating of our ignore cannon
echoes the beating of our facepalms,
there is a life about to start
when we nuke Pyongyang!

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Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f
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Postby Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f » Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:13 pm

Forster Keys wrote:
Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:
Source?


Typical strawman right there.


Stop moving the goalposts!
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TaQud
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Postby TaQud » Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:15 pm

New Libertarian States wrote:I see 3 and 8 a lot.

I see 2,3,7 and 8 a lot actually... :meh:
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List Your Sexuality, nickname(s), NSG Family and Friends, your NS Boyfriend or Girlfriend, gender, favorite quotes and anything else that shows your ego here.
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