Regarding Rape Culture: Its Presence and Method of Attack

[Genivaria]

Which is why consent education is important, and why we need to teach people that fucking people who did not give consent, are under duress to give "consent", or are not in the state to give consent is rape.

Consent education is sort of difficult when we have no understanding of when consent is and is not valid.

No, YOU don't have an understanding, the rest of us do.

[United Kingdom of Muffins]

why are you guys so angry? its not like arguing about this on the internet is going to do anything.

To everyone who ever asks this question on NSG: Why the fuck are you here?

*talking
*cussing out people on the internet
*difference

[Individuality-ness]

Which is why consent education is important, and why we need to teach people that fucking people who did not give consent, are under duress to give "consent", or are not in the state to give consent is rape.

Consent education is sort of difficult when we have no understanding of when consent is and is not valid.

No, we do know when consent is valid or not. You just refuse to accept what it is.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Problem: Many of the people who are going to rape a woman in the instances that seem to be under discussion (intoxication on one or both the parties parts) aren't going to be unsure at all. In fact, they'll more likely than not consider it to NOT be rape because the person consents and, should they be intoxicated themselves, they aren't in a state to determine whether such consent is 'legitimate' or not.

If both parties are intoxicated then it's completely different I think.

I'd agree. When one party is sober it seems like they could easily be held accountable (legally is questionable, but morally from most standpoints it seems easy to assign the blame in that case). I don't know if rape laws hold a distinction though (though they could very well, I am by no means any kind of expert on rape law) and that turns it into a very bad situation as you have intoxicated party A accusing intoxicated party B of rape, combining the problems of rapes often 'he-said she-said' with additional muddiness because the potential rapists part of the 'he-said she-said' problem becomes much more credible.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I know, right? Easy enough to understand. And yet... *sigh*

You know what's sad? When people are so wrapped up in themselves that they can't get their head out of their own collective asses and think about the person that they plan to fuck that night.

You'd think that you'd rather not have the guilt of maybe-committing-rape, but no, apparently, people would rather have something to fuck and not give a shit on what the other person thinks, than to think that they might actually have to go one night without sex. The horror!

More often than not, some people think with their dicks and vaginas and not with their minds. We're too primal sometimes when it comes to sex. Sad, really.

I mean, if I want to fuck like a rabbit on speed, I want to enjoy it, and remember it. Why would I want to be fucked while very inebriated? Why would I want to fuck someone who is unresponsive? Who can't tell me they want to be fucked or not be fucked and who won't, in such a state, enjoy it? Why would I risk, as you said, living with such guilt?

I don't get it.

[Nadkor]

You're right, we should think about others by presuming once a drop of alcohol has crossed their lips they are children incapable of making their own decisions.

I think that at this point it's wise if we just all acknowledge that you clearly cannot read.

[Individuality-ness]

You know what's sad? When people are so wrapped up in themselves that they can't get their head out of their own collective asses and think about the person that they plan to fuck that night.

You'd think that you'd rather not have the guilt of maybe-committing-rape, but no, apparently, people would rather have something to fuck and not give a shit on what the other person thinks, than to think that they might actually have to go one night without sex. The horror!

More often than not, some people think with their dicks and vaginas and not with their minds. We're too primal sometimes when it comes to sex. Sad, really.

I mean, if I want to fuck like a rabbit on speed, I want to enjoy it, and remember it. Why would I want to be fucked while very inebriated? Why would I want to fuck someone who is unresponsive? Who can't tell me they want to be fucked or not be fucked and who won't, in such a state, enjoy it? Why would I risk, as you said, living with such guilt?

I don't get it.

Honestly, if I wanted to fuck something that's unresponsive, I'd buy myself a fucking sex doll. Or two. Or three. Whatever. Then you can have all of the unresponsive sex you want, and you'll never be guilty of rape, ever.

[Des-Bal]

"unless they have expressed their desire not to be a participant they were not raped."

Rape is fucking someone without their consent. Yet you claim that unless they actively express anti-consent then it's not rape. The only logical thing to take from this is that consent is inherently there until it is withdrawn.

You believe in presumed consent.

Twist and turn whatever way you want - but anybody who can actually read and think knows exactly who and what you are.

No, the logical thing to take from that (given I explained it repeatedly) is that while consent defaults to "No" it should be the expressed "No" that separates rape from other crimes.

[Nadkor]

More often than not, some people think with their dicks and vaginas and not with their minds. We're too primal sometimes when it comes to sex. Sad, really.

I mean, if I want to fuck like a rabbit on speed, I want to enjoy it, and remember it. Why would I want to be fucked while very inebriated? Why would I want to fuck someone who is unresponsive? Who can't tell me they want to be fucked or not be fucked and who won't, in such a state, enjoy it? Why would I risk, as you said, living with such guilt?

I don't get it.

Honestly, if I wanted to fuck something that's unresponsive, I'd buy myself a fucking sex doll. Or two. Or three. Whatever. Then you can have all of the unresponsive sex you want, and you'll never be guilty of rape, ever.

I have something that takes batteries that's precisely that unresponsive.

While fun, it's not quite as fun as the real thing.

[Genivaria]

If both parties are intoxicated then it's completely different I think.

I'd agree. When one party is sober it seems like they could easily be held accountable (legally is questionable, but morally from most standpoints it seems easy to assign the blame in that case). I don't know if rape laws hold a distinction though (though they could very well, I am by no means any kind of expert on rape law) and that turns it into a very bad situation as you have intoxicated party A accusing intoxicated party B of rape, combining the problems of rapes often 'he-said she-said' with additional muddiness because the potential rapists part of the 'he-said she-said' problem becomes much more credible.

Honestly the first thing that I think of when I think of the "2 people drunk and have sex" is a 'drowning your sorrows at the bar' kind of scenario.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

More often than not, some people think with their dicks and vaginas and not with their minds. We're too primal sometimes when it comes to sex. Sad, really.

I mean, if I want to fuck like a rabbit on speed, I want to enjoy it, and remember it. Why would I want to be fucked while very inebriated? Why would I want to fuck someone who is unresponsive? Who can't tell me they want to be fucked or not be fucked and who won't, in such a state, enjoy it? Why would I risk, as you said, living with such guilt?

I don't get it.

Honestly, if I wanted to fuck something that's unresponsive, I'd buy myself a fucking sex doll. Or two. Or three. Whatever. Then you can have all of the unresponsive sex you want, and you'll never be guilty of rape, ever.

Exactly. There are so many options now for those who like to fuck unresponsive things, like fleshlights and assorted sex toys. Make use of those. Don't rape.

[Individuality-ness]

Honestly, if I wanted to fuck something that's unresponsive, I'd buy myself a fucking sex doll. Or two. Or three. Whatever. Then you can have all of the unresponsive sex you want, and you'll never be guilty of rape, ever.

I have something that takes batteries that's precisely that unresponsive.

While fun, it's not quite as fun as the real thing.

Well yeah, no shit, but apparently some people get off on that. Which is weird, because why the hell would that be good sex?

[Des-Bal]

No, YOU don't have an understanding, the rest of us do.

I don't understand why you think the inherently subjective judgement calls of drunk people are a good standard.

[Nadkor]

"unless they have expressed their desire not to be a participant they were not raped."

Rape is fucking someone without their consent. Yet you claim that unless they actively express anti-consent then it's not rape. The only logical thing to take from this is that consent is inherently there until it is withdrawn.

You believe in presumed consent.

Twist and turn whatever way you want - but anybody who can actually read and think knows exactly who and what you are.

No, the logical thing to take from that (given I explained it repeatedly) is that while consent defaults to "No" it should be the expressed "No" that separates rape from other crimes.

Yeah, but you see this is the twisting and turning. We have your words and what you've written, and we know what words such as "rape" mean.

We know what you are.

[Genivaria]

"unless they have expressed their desire not to be a participant they were not raped."

Rape is fucking someone without their consent. Yet you claim that unless they actively express anti-consent then it's not rape. The only logical thing to take from this is that consent is inherently there until it is withdrawn.

You believe in presumed consent.

Twist and turn whatever way you want - but anybody who can actually read and think knows exactly who and what you are.

No, the logical thing to take from that (given I explained it repeatedly) is that while consent defaults to "No" it should be the expressed "No" that separates rape from other crimes.

Wrong. The 'no' doesn't need to be expressed.

[Genivaria]

No, YOU don't have an understanding, the rest of us do.

I don't understand why you think the inherently subjective judgement calls of drunk people are a good standard.

If you can't understand what we've actually been saying (instead of the bullshit that you twist our words into) then that's your problem.

[Des-Bal]

Wrong. The 'no' doesn't need to be expressed.

It should. In the absence two people getting drunk and fucking is the same thing as someone raping someone at gunpoint.

[Nadkor]

No, YOU don't have an understanding, the rest of us do.

I don't understand why you think the inherently subjective judgement calls of drunk people are a good standard.

If you're unsure as to whether the other person has consented and have reason to question your judgement on it then don't fuck them.

Getting your dick wet is not more important than not raping someone.

If you can't understand this fact then the best option for you is to simply refrain from fucking anyone, because you run a serious risk of raping someone.

Not fucking shouldn't be hard, for you.

[Des-Bal]

Yeah, but you see this is the twisting and turning. We have your words and what you've written, and we know what words such as "rape" mean.

We know what you are.

There's no twisting or turning going on. There's only selective reading.

[Genivaria]

Yeah, but you see this is the twisting and turning. We have your words and what you've written, and we know what words such as "rape" mean.

We know what you are.

There's no twisting or turning going on. There's only selective reading.

Woooooow.

[Des-Bal]

If you're unsure as to whether the other person has consented and have reason to question your judgement on it then don't fuck them.

Getting your dick wet is not more important than not raping someone.

If you can't understand this fact then the best option for you is to simply refrain from fucking anyone.

That shouldn't be hard, for you.

When rape is just something people accidentally do your definitions are fucked.

I can appreciate the sensitivity of the issue but there's no reason to resort to personal attacks.

[Genivaria]

If you're unsure as to whether the other person has consented and have reason to question your judgement on it then don't fuck them.

Getting your dick wet is not more important than not raping someone.

If you can't understand this fact then the best option for you is to simply refrain from fucking anyone.

That shouldn't be hard, for you.

When rape is just something people accidentally do your definitions are fucked.

I can appreciate the sensitivity of the issue but there's no reason to resort to personal attacks.

Oh we're not personally attacking you. If we were somewhere other then NS we would be though, or at least I would be.

[Des-Bal]

Oh we're not personally attacking you. If we were somewhere other then NS we would be though, or at least I would be.

I'm inviting you to ease back. This is an important subject ripe for discussion and there's no reason to get the thread locked because we can't behave like adults.

[Genivaria]

If both parties are intoxicated then it's completely different I think.

I'd agree. When one party is sober it seems like they could easily be held accountable (legally is questionable, but morally from most standpoints it seems easy to assign the blame in that case). I don't know if rape laws hold a distinction though (though they could very well, I am by no means any kind of expert on rape law) and that turns it into a very bad situation as you have intoxicated party A accusing intoxicated party B of rape, combining the problems of rapes often 'he-said she-said' with additional muddiness because the potential rapists part of the 'he-said she-said' problem becomes much more credible.

If a legal situation comes up then either of them should be well within their rights to demand blood work being done to show they had alcohol in their systems.

[Saint Jade IV]

If you're unsure as to whether the other person has consented and have reason to question your judgement on it then don't fuck them.

Getting your dick wet is not more important than not raping someone.

If you can't understand this fact then the best option for you is to simply refrain from fucking anyone.

That shouldn't be hard, for you.

When rape is just something people accidentally do your definitions are fucked.

I can appreciate the sensitivity of the issue but there's no reason to resort to personal attacks.

No, their ability to consider the needs and feelings of others is.

What is sex for you? Like, what is your purpose in having sex? To get off? To get laid? Or to share a mutual sexual experience with a willing and able partner?