Regarding Rape Culture: Its Presence and Method of Attack

[Freelanderness]

Okay so do you want a personal account of being a survivor of sexual abuse and what it's like (cos it sure ain't fun)? Or what kind of information do I need to give you?

Excellent question. Individualness gave an outline about what constitutes rape culture. I'd like to see the evidence that those claims are true.

TW: Sexual violence, Victim Blaming
Okay, the first person I told was one of my closest friends, he said that he was sorry about it but I "must have done something to deserve it." He then proceeded to say that he thought less of me, and that he wasn't sure that he wanted to be friends with someone so promiscuous.

I stayed silent for a few days, but I thought maybe it had just been bad luck the first time and told another friend of mine: he chuckled and said,
"No wonder you've been such a bitch lately," as if he were teasing. When I got upset, he said,
"You little whore, you probably liked it." On numerous occasions after that, he would tell me that he was going to do it to me, and I was going to like it, laughing the whole while as if it were the funniest joke.

And again: "Chrissakes, you're 14-years-old, what are you doing hanging around men like that? What did you expect would happen?"

A boyfriend/paedophile somewhere along the way: "You did it for him, you can do it for me."

When it happened again, with a new boyfriend, I told close friend of mine, and the first thing she said was,
"Wow, that's fucked up."
And I went, "yeah."
"Why did you let him do that to you?"
I was flustered, "I don't know, I didn't want to. I felt obligated."
By now she was looking at me with a disgusted look on her face, "So you're telling me that not only are you a shit girlfriend, and a slut, you've got the nerve to complain about it?"
"It didn't feel right."
"You're a disgrace. It's not rape if you're dating him."
She didn't talk to me after that. And somehow word got around that I was a slut, and a whiny bitch. I don't think she told anyone the specific details, but they all knew.

A guy I barely knew: "You ain't worth shit as a good girl. You ruined that."

After telling him about it: "Don't fucking talk to me anymore."

I'm getting dizzy, so I'm not writing any more memories. I have too many of this and thinking about it too much drives me crazy.

[Seperates]

That's the theory yeh.

But that doesn't explain how people choose the style of dickery that they post. For example, why is Nazi crap so much more pervasive than hereditary aristocracy crap? (And rape crap is somewhere in between...)

Indeed... pretty lacking as in predictive capabilities as theories go. I mean I am more or less anonymous... I have something of an audience... and yet (I hope) I'm not being a dick.

And Nazi crap is likely more pervasive because it does require one to claim to be part of aristocracy (of which there is virtually none). As well, Nazism is something that more people are familiar with in America rather than the idea of hereditary aristocracy. And it's some thing of an emotional buzzword, where as aristocracy isn't.

[Edlichbury]

That's the theory yeh.

But that doesn't explain how people choose the style of dickery that they post. For example, why is Nazi crap so much more pervasive than hereditary aristocracy crap? (And rape crap is somewhere in between...)

I'm guessing there's a larger audience that would support racism than monarchies since there are more racists than royals alive. Though I still can't fathom why anyone would support the rape culture and its implications unless they are a rapist.

[Sedikal]

It does sound like an issue but I have a lake of experience or understanding of its presence. On the issue of men getting raped. It's a 100% posibility that a women can rape a man and it does happen but their are a lack of men (at least that I know) that would be like "I was raped!" because the whole mentality for use is to have as much sex as we can or at least a lot of us do as I know I can speak for the whole gender. But with the large group of men I hang out with only a small few would probably attest to being raoed if they had non-consentual sex. We're as other would be like "well she wasn't bad and I'd fuck her any way so it automatically makes in consensual" which probably isn't the way you should look at it but thats how some men think of it. If I had non-consensual sex with another women is be upset but I wouldn't call out rape just because I wouldn't feel the need to. I would have any issue with it is take it in and be like "Ok that just happened" but I'm not the kind of guy to crying rape.

But then again unless I was ruffied a women probably wouldent be able to rape me. I could just be boosting my ego but that's they way I've experienced a rape culture in my own social life.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Excellent question. Individualness gave an outline about what constitutes rape culture. I'd like to see the evidence that those claims are true.

TW: Sexual violence, Victim Blaming
Okay, the first person I told was one of my closest friends, he said that he was sorry about it but I "must have done something to deserve it." He then proceeded to say that he thought less of me, and that he wasn't sure that he wanted to be friends with someone so promiscuous.

I stayed silent for a few days, but I thought maybe it had just been bad luck the first time and told another friend of mine: he chuckled and said,
"No wonder you've been such a bitch lately," as if he were teasing. When I got upset, he said,
"You little whore, you probably liked it." On numerous occasions after that, he would tell me that he was going to do it to me, and I was going to like it, laughing the whole while as if it were the funniest joke.

And again: "Chrissakes, you're 14-years-old, what are you doing hanging around men like that? What did you expect would happen?"

A boyfriend/paedophile somewhere along the way: "You did it for him, you can do it for me."

When it happened again, with a new boyfriend, I told close friend of mine, and the first thing she said was,
"Wow, that's fucked up."
And I went, "yeah."
"Why did you let him do that to you?"
I was flustered, "I don't know, I didn't want to. I felt obligated."
By now she was looking at me with a disgusted look on her face, "So you're telling me that not only are you a shit girlfriend, and a slut, you've got the nerve to complain about it?"
"It didn't feel right."
"You're a disgrace. It's not rape if you're dating him."
She didn't talk to me after that. And somehow word got around that I was a slut, and a whiny bitch. I don't think she told anyone the specific details, but they all knew.

A guy I barely knew: "You ain't worth shit as a good girl. You ruined that."

After telling him about it: "Don't fucking talk to me anymore."

I'm getting dizzy, so I'm not writing any more memories. I have too many of this and thinking about it too much drives me crazy.

You need better friends if that's your friends' reaction when you tell them about getting raped.

Sometimes I wonder if something is a little off about me because it seems like other people have more friends than I do. But then when people tell me about their "friends," it doesn't always sound like I am missing anything good.

[Freelanderness]

It does sound like an issue but I have a lake of experience or understanding of its presence. On the issue of men getting raped. It's a 100% posibility that a women can rape a man and it does happen but their are a lack of men (at least that I know) that would be like "I was raped!" because the whole mentality for use is to have as much sex as we can or at least a lot of us do as I know I can speak for the whole gender. But with the large group of men I hang out with only a small few would probably attest to being raoed if they had non-consentual sex. We're as other would be like "well she wasn't bad and I'd fuck her any way so it automatically makes in consensual" which probably isn't the way you should look at it but thats how some men think of it. If I had non-consensual sex with another women is be upset but I wouldn't call out rape just because I wouldn't feel the need to. I would have any issue with it is take it in and be like "Ok that just happened" but I'm not the kind of guy to crying rape.

But then again unless I was ruffied a women probably wouldent be able to rape me. I could just be boosting my ego but that's they way I've experienced a rape culture in my own social life.

I assure you that if you ever have the experience (I hope to any god or fate that you don't) that you will see the issue quite differently. It thoroughly, thoroughly fucks with your mentality psyche, and your ability to basically function in any setting.

[Freelanderness]

TW: Sexual violence, Victim Blaming

Okay, the first person I told was one of my closest friends, he said that he was sorry about it but I "must have done something to deserve it." He then proceeded to say that he thought less of me, and that he wasn't sure that he wanted to be friends with someone so promiscuous.

I stayed silent for a few days, but I thought maybe it had just been bad luck the first time and told another friend of mine: he chuckled and said,
"No wonder you've been such a bitch lately," as if he were teasing. When I got upset, he said,
"You little whore, you probably liked it." On numerous occasions after that, he would tell me that he was going to do it to me, and I was going to like it, laughing the whole while as if it were the funniest joke.

And again: "Chrissakes, you're 14-years-old, what are you doing hanging around men like that? What did you expect would happen?"

A boyfriend/paedophile somewhere along the way: "You did it for him, you can do it for me."

When it happened again, with a new boyfriend, I told close friend of mine, and the first thing she said was,
"Wow, that's fucked up."
And I went, "yeah."
"Why did you let him do that to you?"
I was flustered, "I don't know, I didn't want to. I felt obligated."
By now she was looking at me with a disgusted look on her face, "So you're telling me that not only are you a shit girlfriend, and a slut, you've got the nerve to complain about it?"
"It didn't feel right."
"You're a disgrace. It's not rape if you're dating him."
She didn't talk to me after that. And somehow word got around that I was a slut, and a whiny bitch. I don't think she told anyone the specific details, but they all knew.

A guy I barely knew: "You ain't worth shit as a good girl. You ruined that."

After telling him about it: "Don't fucking talk to me anymore."

I'm getting dizzy, so I'm not writing any more memories. I have too many of this and thinking about it too much drives me crazy.

You need better friends if that's your friends' reaction when you tell them about getting raped.

Sometimes I wonder if something is a little off about me because it seems like other people have more friends than I do. But then when people tell me about their "friends," it doesn't always sound like I am missing anything good.

It is most likely affected by my age, since this carried on through the years 13-15, from varying sources. When you are young like that, you don't really quite understand how to choose friends, which was also affected by how I was raised. Coincidently, those things also fed into me being vulnerable for the abuse.

Seeing me now, I am a completely different person, a strong person, with strong friends who would support me no matter what. That, however, I had to learn the hard way.

[Edlichbury]

It does sound like an issue but I have a lake of experience or understanding of its presence. On the issue of men getting raped. It's a 100% posibility that a women can rape a man and it does happen but their are a lack of men (at least that I know) that would be like "I was raped!" because the whole mentality for use is to have as much sex as we can or at least a lot of us do as I know I can speak for the whole gender. But with the large group of men I hang out with only a small few would probably attest to being raoed if they had non-consentual sex. We're as other would be like "well she wasn't bad and I'd fuck her any way so it automatically makes in consensual" which probably isn't the way you should look at it but thats how some men think of it. If I had non-consensual sex with another women is be upset but I wouldn't call out rape just because I wouldn't feel the need to. I would have any issue with it is take it in and be like "Ok that just happened" but I'm not the kind of guy to crying rape.

But then again unless I was ruffied a women probably wouldent be able to rape me. I could just be boosting my ego but that's they way I've experienced a rape culture in my own social life.

I assure you that if you ever have the experience (I hope to any god or fate that you don't) that you will see the issue quite differently. It thoroughly, thoroughly fucks with your mentality psyche, and your ability to basically function in any setting.

I don't think the causes are at all comparable, but I think rape culture as a whole could be a lot less prevalent if people understood PTSD better. My friends (even those who have studied psychology) still can't fully understand why I'm not keen on driving after my accident. I can't fathom what the mental trauma from rape would be like, but I do at least understand as a sufferer of PTSD that it seriously disrupts lives. I think if everyone understood this, the act of rape would be much more horrifying for society as a whole.

[Nazi Flower Power]

You need better friends if that's your friends' reaction when you tell them about getting raped.

Sometimes I wonder if something is a little off about me because it seems like other people have more friends than I do. But then when people tell me about their "friends," it doesn't always sound like I am missing anything good.

It is most likely affected by my age, since this carried on through the years 13-15, from varying sources. When you are young like that, you don't really quite understand how to choose friends, which was also affected by how I was raised. Coincidently, those things also fed into me being vulnerable for the abuse.

Seeing me now, I am a completely different person, a strong person, with strong friends who would support me no matter what. That, however, I had to learn the hard way.

Yeah, that is an awkward age. I'm doing better now than when I was 13 too.

[Freelanderness]

I assure you that if you ever have the experience (I hope to any god or fate that you don't) that you will see the issue quite differently. It thoroughly, thoroughly fucks with your mentality psyche, and your ability to basically function in any setting.

I don't think the causes are at all comparable, but I think rape culture as a whole could be a lot less prevalent if people understood PTSD better. My friends (even those who have studied psychology) still can't fully understand why I'm not keen on driving after my accident. I can't fathom what the mental trauma from rape would be like, but I do at least understand as a sufferer of PTSD that it seriously disrupts lives. I think if everyone understood this, the act of rape would be much more horrifying for society as a whole.

No I agree. Because when people question victims and they don't always remember things properly, people think they're lying. But really that's just the effects. Hell I didn't remember until I got violently triggered while attempting to have consensual sex years later. It's a frightening, frightening thing, and I think people would better be able to understand what a victim is really going through.

[Edlichbury]

I don't think the causes are at all comparable, but I think rape culture as a whole could be a lot less prevalent if people understood PTSD better. My friends (even those who have studied psychology) still can't fully understand why I'm not keen on driving after my accident. I can't fathom what the mental trauma from rape would be like, but I do at least understand as a sufferer of PTSD that it seriously disrupts lives. I think if everyone understood this, the act of rape would be much more horrifying for society as a whole.

No I agree. Because when people question victims and they don't always remember things properly, people think they're lying. But really that's just the effects. Hell I didn't remember until I got violently triggered while attempting to have consensual sex years later. It's a frightening, frightening thing, and I think people would better be able to understand what a victim is really going through.

It's definitely one of the the least understood problems. I could hardly remember the details of the crash, but for some reason society seems to not believe that PTSD really hits hard the ability to remember specifics about the event while making a lot of things remind you about the event. I think an awareness campaign for mental health in general probably would do good, but what horrifies me about cases is that some people focus on the damage caused by the rapist's actions in legal repercussions for them, but don't make any reference to the mental problems sufferers will deal with.

[Des-Bal]

Now, how do you react to the link to your post, in which you claim "If that person didn't express their Anti Consent then it's not rape."

Seeing as you should know now that your statement was wrong, how do you respond to this example of pervasive rape culture?

I stand by that statement. That's not the product of any rape culture that's me talking about what actually separates rape from other crimes. I expressed the opinion that rape should be defined by the violation of the expressed will not the absence of consent.

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't think the causes are at all comparable, but I think rape culture as a whole could be a lot less prevalent if people understood PTSD better. My friends (even those who have studied psychology) still can't fully understand why I'm not keen on driving after my accident. I can't fathom what the mental trauma from rape would be like, but I do at least understand as a sufferer of PTSD that it seriously disrupts lives. I think if everyone understood this, the act of rape would be much more horrifying for society as a whole.

No I agree. Because when people question victims and they don't always remember things properly, people think they're lying. But really that's just the effects. Hell I didn't remember until I got violently triggered while attempting to have consensual sex years later. It's a frightening, frightening thing, and I think people would better be able to understand what a victim is really going through.

We learned about this in psychology.
If you ask someone for their story and it keeps changing, all it means is that upon reflecting on the events more and more they are remembering more and more about them.
Which is entirely to be expected.
A liar on the other hand will be careful to stick to the lie and not expand on it, they are consciously trying to deceive and be believed.
A tactic the police will use is to ask you to recite events in reverse order. Liars typically can't do it, since they memorized a script.

[Edlichbury]

Now, how do you react to the link to your post, in which you claim "If that person didn't express their Anti Consent then it's not rape."

Seeing as you should know now that your statement was wrong, how do you respond to this example of pervasive rape culture?

I stand by that statement. That's not the product of any rape culture that's me talking about what actually separates rape from other crimes. I expressed the opinion that rape should be defined by the violation of the expressed will not the absence of consent.

Well then you are an exact definition of the rape culture. Your argument boils down to, "She never said no!" which is a typical complaint of the rape apologists. Do you understand the concept that the lack of consent to sexual activity implies a desire to not have sex?

[Des-Bal]

Well then you are an exact definition of the rape culture. Your argument boils down to, "She never said no!" which is a typical complaint of the rape apologists. Do you understand the concept that the lack of consent to sexual activity implies a desire to not have sex?

Bullshit. I am not saying that sex in the absence of consent should be legal. I'm saying that it's the expressed will that should define rape.

As an example, two underage people engage in sex. Both would desire to have sex, rape?

[Edlichbury]

Well then you are an exact definition of the rape culture. Your argument boils down to, "She never said no!" which is a typical complaint of the rape apologists. Do you understand the concept that the lack of consent to sexual activity implies a desire to not have sex?

Bullshit. I am not saying that sex in the absence of consent should be legal. I'm saying that it's the expressed will that should define rape.

As an example, two underage people engage in sex. Both would desire to have sex, rape?

The problem is the "expressed will" is always implied to be no until proven otherwise. This is why those who are considered incapable of consent are assumed to not consent, instead of assumed to always consent. So let's try this again: do you understand that unless they expressly give their consent to sex with no ambiguity, consent has not been given and it is rape?

[Des-Bal]

The problem is the "expressed will" is always implied to be no until proven otherwise. This is why those who are considered incapable of consent are assumed to not consent, instead of assumed to always consent. So let's try this again: do you understand that unless they expressly give their consent to sex with no ambiguity, consent has not been given and it is rape?

This part? Yes. This part? That part I disagree with.

As an example, two underage people engage in sex. Both would desire to have sex, rape?

You didn't really respond to this.

[Edlichbury]

The problem is the "expressed will" is always implied to be no until proven otherwise. This is why those who are considered incapable of consent are assumed to not consent, instead of assumed to always consent. So let's try this again: do you understand that unless they expressly give their consent to sex with no ambiguity, consent has not been given and it is rape?

This part? Yes. This part? That part I disagree with.

As an example, two underage people engage in sex. Both would desire to have sex, rape?

You didn't really respond to this.

Then you don't know the definition of rape or what to change it to what it is not. Making you an example of rape culture.
And in the case of the two underage people, neither is capable of consenting to sex under most jurisdictional laws. As such, neither can willfully engage in sexual acts, making neither under the law capable of rape. At least, that's how the system works here.

Now let me provide an example. There is an unconscious person. By definition, they cannot give any express consent. Would it be rape to have sex with them? If your answer is still no, then you are exactly what we use as an example of prevalent rape culture.

[Des-Bal]

Then you don't know the definition of rape or what to change it to what it is not. Making you an example of rape culture.
And in the case of the two underage people, neither is capable of consenting to sex under most jurisdictional laws. As such, neither can willfully engage in sexual acts, making neither under the law capable of rape. At least, that's how the system works here.

Now let me provide an example. There is an unconscious person. By definition, they cannot give any express consent. Would it be rape to have sex with them? If your answer is still no, then you are exactly what we use as an example of prevalent rape culture.

I want to change it. That's what that entire thing was about.

So by your definition neither is capable of rape, that means if the first underage person forces the second underage person to have sex no crime was committed?

No. It should absolutely be a crime it just shouldn't be rape. Rape should be sex in violation of the expressed will and the only acceptable punishments should be life in prison or death.

[Edlichbury]

Then you don't know the definition of rape or what to change it to what it is not. Making you an example of rape culture.
And in the case of the two underage people, neither is capable of consenting to sex under most jurisdictional laws. As such, neither can willfully engage in sexual acts, making neither under the law capable of rape. At least, that's how the system works here.

Now let me provide an example. There is an unconscious person. By definition, they cannot give any express consent. Would it be rape to have sex with them? If your answer is still no, then you are exactly what we use as an example of prevalent rape culture.

I want to change it. That's what that entire thing was about.

So by your definition neither is capable of rape, that means if the first underage person forces the second underage person to have sex no crime was committed?

No. It should absolutely be a crime it just shouldn't be rape. Rape should be sex in violation of the expressed will and the only acceptable punishments should be life in prison or death.

Answer the hypothetical if you can, but moving on.

And the system here would likely consider forced sex by an underage person to warrant rape under very specific circumstances. If it's obviously forced, then the lack of ability to provide consent to sex is outweighed by the obvious intent of the act. However, this requires pretty concrete proof, more than for normal cases of rape, that the minor voluntarily and intently raped someone. But the standard would be that you could prove unquestionably that the one of the minors wanted to rape someone. And based on your hypothetical, which implied both wanted the sex, the argument for one committing rape would be very weak.

[Des-Bal]

Answer the hypothetical if you can, but moving on.

And the system here would likely consider forced sex by an underage person to warrant rape under very specific circumstances. If it's obviously forced, then the lack of ability to provide consent to sex is outweighed by the obvious intent of the act. However, this requires pretty concrete proof, more than for normal cases of rape, that the minor voluntarily and intently raped someone. But the standard would be that you could prove unquestionably that the one of the minors wanted to rape someone. And based on your hypothetical, which implied both wanted the sex, the argument for one committing rape would be very weak.

But rape is ,according to you, just sex in the absence of consent. In both cases neither party was consenting to sex.

I answered the hypothetical right here.

No. It should absolutely be a crime it just shouldn't be rape. Rape should be sex in violation of the expressed will and the only acceptable punishments should be life in prison or death.

[Edlichbury]

Answer the hypothetical if you can, but moving on.

And the system here would likely consider forced sex by an underage person to warrant rape under very specific circumstances. If it's obviously forced, then the lack of ability to provide consent to sex is outweighed by the obvious intent of the act. However, this requires pretty concrete proof, more than for normal cases of rape, that the minor voluntarily and intently raped someone. But the standard would be that you could prove unquestionably that the one of the minors wanted to rape someone. And based on your hypothetical, which implied both wanted the sex, the argument for one committing rape would be very weak.

But rape is ,according to you, just sex in the absence of consent. In both cases neither party was consenting to sex.

I answered the hypothetical right here.

No. It should absolutely be a crime it just shouldn't be rape. Rape should be sex in violation of the expressed will and the only acceptable punishments should be life in prison or death.

First, that's not right either. It is sex that one side consented to but the other did not.
Second, that's a terrible standard to have. Different crimes for whether or not the victim was even capable of consenting? The state of the victim is not very relevant, voluntarily consenting to sex with someone who did not give consent, for any reason, is rape. It does not matter if the victim was incapable of consent due to mental or physical state, they never gave consent, or if they even provided what you called "anti-consent." If consent is not given, then it's rape. If you can't understand this concept, or if you disagree with this concept, you are the exact thing the OP addressed and there's no point for us to continue looking for examples of rape culture for you.

[Des-Bal]

First, that's not right either. It is sex that one side consented to but the other did not.
Second, that's a terrible standard to have. Different crimes for whether or not the victim was even capable of consenting? The state of the victim is not very relevant, voluntarily consenting to sex with someone who did not give consent, for any reason, is rape. It does not matter if the victim was incapable of consent due to mental or physical state, they never gave consent, or if they even provided what you called "anti-consent." If consent is not given, then it's rape. If you can't understand this concept, or if you disagree with this concept, you are the exact thing the OP addressed and there's no point for us to continue looking for examples of rape culture for you.

Could have been clearer but yes that's what I was saying.

You're saying that disagreeing with legal definitions makes me part of the rape culture? I support euthanasia, does that make me part of the murder culture?

[Edlichbury]

First, that's not right either. It is sex that one side consented to but the other did not.
Second, that's a terrible standard to have. Different crimes for whether or not the victim was even capable of consenting? The state of the victim is not very relevant, voluntarily consenting to sex with someone who did not give consent, for any reason, is rape. It does not matter if the victim was incapable of consent due to mental or physical state, they never gave consent, or if they even provided what you called "anti-consent." If consent is not given, then it's rape. If you can't understand this concept, or if you disagree with this concept, you are the exact thing the OP addressed and there's no point for us to continue looking for examples of rape culture for you.

Could have been clearer but yes that's what I was saying.

You're saying that disagreeing with legal definitions makes me part of the rape culture? I support euthanasia, does that make me part of the murder culture?

Key difference: euthanasia operates with the assumption that the person in question consented.

And yes, disagreeing in this case makes you part of it. Stating that a case of rape shouldn't be considered rape because the person lacked the ability to say no is minimizing their experience and stating it doesn't matter as much. It is telling the person who suffered from the rape "Nope, you weren't raped because you couldn't even say no." That's a huge part of rape culture and that's disturbing. However, no effort will actually convince you, so I'm just going to leave you to your own delusions about what can and can't be called rape.

[Des-Bal]

Key difference: euthanasia operates with the assumption that the person in question consented.

And yes, disagreeing in this case makes you part of it. Stating that a case of rape shouldn't be considered rape because the person lacked the ability to say no is minimizing their experience and stating it doesn't matter as much. It is telling the person who suffered from the rape "Nope, you weren't raped because you couldn't even say no." That's a huge part of rape culture and that's disturbing. However, no effort will actually convince you, so I'm just going to leave you to your own delusions about what can and can't be called rape.

That's completely irrelevant. I'm saying the laws on the books about murder are wrong. I am saying we should change the law and legalize a form of murder.

You're saying that questioning the law means condoning a crime. Laws on the books in iirc california hold two minors engaging in sex to both be committing rape. That minimizes the crime of rape.