Regarding Rape Culture: Its Presence and Method of Attack

[Ifreann]

I would say yes, though not necessarily just that. Punishment can be an element of reformation.

What kind of punishment though?

Imprisonment. Generally fines would also be okay, but not for something like rape.

[Individuality-ness]

What kind of punishment though?

Imprisonment. Generally fines would also be okay, but not for something like rape.

So essentially while they're sitting in their jail cells, we'd be teaching them about consent?

[Esternial]

Imprisonment. Generally fines would also be okay, but not for something like rape.

So essentially while they're sitting in their jail cells, we'd be teaching them about consent?

Essentially.

[Ifreann]

Imprisonment. Generally fines would also be okay, but not for something like rape.

So essentially while they're sitting in their jail cells, we'd be teaching them about consent?

They could do it in actual classrooms. You know, secure ones, with guards. But yeah, generally. Different cases might warrant different approaches, as not every rapist is a product of our rape culture.

[Tahar Joblis]

Okay, since we already have a thread on this, I might as well bring it here: sentencing for rapists? What would you recommend?

Obviously, this isn't directed at attacking the cause of rape culture directly, but since we've heard cases in which hackers get more jail time than actual rapists (see this thread), figured this would be relevant.

On average - and I should bring this to your new thread - sentences for rape are actually quite long.

Statistics from Bureau of Justice Statistics on sentence lengths at admission. These are the most serious charges, sorted by mean sentence length, on the most specific subcategories available in those tables:

Most serious offense	Median sentence	Mean sentence
Murder	441	291
Rape	120	158
Nonnegligent manslaughter	132	157
Unspecified homicide	102	139
Negligent manslaughter	84	116
Other Sexual Assault	72	115
Kidnapping	60	108
Robbery	65	96
Arson	60	81

You serve a month's less time, on average, for non-negligent manslaughter than for rape. You serve less time for kidnapping or arson than for other sexual assaults, exclusive of rape cases. Those numbers are in months; the median sentence for someone whose most serious offense is rape is ten years. The mean sentence is thirteen years and two months.

[Forsher]

Possibly because it's not true or a problem, and is a pretty good example of how a lot of these issues have a lot more "agenda" to them than reality.

Boys, as a whole, are doing better than ever.

Anyone who holds much stock in grade inflation begs to differ. Of course, that's because they disagree with the idea that students are, as a whole, doing better in the first place.

Overall academic achievement for boys is higher than it's ever been. Girls are just doing slightly better than that.

Depends what in and, to an extent, where. In reading, PISA has a 39 point gap in favour of female students across the OECD and partnership economies. In maths it's 12 or so (I can't remember it as closely, may be a little more or less) in favour of boys and the mean gap in science is exactly 0 (I expect, personally, this to change for the next lot). That's the 2009 PISA data.

Now, if you look at the first couple of tables and graphs in this PDF (NZ figures) you'll note that Year 11 and Year 12 boys are narrowing the gap with girls (across all subjects as this is in terms of passing what is sort of like a three stage High School Diploma... to put it in terms an American audience will understand, it's more like my understanding of GCSE and A Levels), Y13 and University Entrance, bizarrely, show a movement away (i.e. the attainment gap increases). What happens after my cohort is finished with NCEA will be interesting to see. Because I think we're clever I expect nothing worse than stagnation.

The spinning of this as "boys are falling behind" is pure backlash against feminism, because any reasonable person looking at stats like - for example - the fact that college attendance rates for boys have gone from 54% to 64% in the last 50 years and college attendance rates for girls have gone from 38% to 70% in the same time period does not conclude "oh no! boys are falling behind!" but rather "awesome, both boys and girls are doing significantly better."

Most people without an agenda would look at figures with the denominator being all students going to "college". I say you've got an agenda because of the "pure backlash against feminism" bit. An average point gap of 39 in the OECD in an area considerably more important than maths (for the general population) is very much a major concern. Assuming a 50% gender split...

100 students, 50 male and 50 female. That's 27 boys and 19 girls at the start (i.e. 41% of university students* are female). That also means you get 32 boys and 35 girls at the end (i.e. 52% of university students* are female). I have a feeling that there are, in fact, still more male than females at this age so it's probably closer to 50%, which is a much better proof that boys are not falling behind (although it's still subject to the same flaws that university attendance rates have in the first place, such as, say, actually getting a degree out of university being a better metric because that's what is really needed these days to be competitive in life).

*I've used "university students" because I'm not 100% certain that your numbers are the proportion of boys/girls of university age going to uni, and it's quicker to type.

You know where the actual big gap in academic achievement is? The gap that's a hell of a lot more significant than the tiny percentage differences we see in measures of success between boys and girls in general?

A 7-10 percentage point gap (for attainment across levels one, two and three) is not tiny, especially when coupled with a 6 percentage point gap in staying at school.

For example, in each year a greater proportion of male students than female students leave school without NCEA Level 1 during Years 11 and 12. Comparing the percentages of male and female students who have attained NCEA Level 1 by the end of Year 12, with only those students who were still at school, would therefore overestimate male students’ level 1 performance, and consequently underestimate the level 1 performance gap between male students and female students. Using the original Year 11 students as a basis for calculating percentages right through to Year 13 avoids this problem, because all students are counted in the denominators for the percentages, whether or not they remain at school.

And to go back to that reading thing, 39 is by no stretch of the imagination tiny when the numbers are only in the high-mid hundreds. (39 is, for reference, nearly 6% of 700.) 12 and 0, on the other hand, are.

It's between middle-class kids and lower-income kids, especially working-class black and Hispanic kids

We get the same thing here, just different ethnicities.

Figures 11-14 compare the performance of New Zealand Maori, New Zealand European, Pasifika and Asian participating candidates in attaining NCEA Levels 1-3 and University Entrance, respectively. These are the four largest ethnicities and represent 97.5% of all students. Students not identifying as any of these ethnicities are omitted from these data.

Just some perspective (Pasifika are Tongans, Samoans etc. - I don't think the term is widely used outside NZ, I'm not sure though).

[E]thnic identity is correlated with socio-economic status: New Zealand Maori and Pasifika candidates are heavily represented in Decile Band 1-3 and less so in Decile Band 4-7 and even less so in Decile Band 8-10. Therefore some of what appears to be an effect of ethnicity could be an
effect of socio-economic level.

Decile 1 is the lowest socio-economic decile and Decile 10 the highest. There is, especially in Auckland, a positive correlation between school size in terms of the student population and school decile. Auckland Grammar, an all boys school Decile Ten/mistaken for private/so famous private schools aspire to be it has 2500 students, for example.

Anyway, the thing is that there are two tiers going on here. NZ European (me and most of my friends) and Asians (most of my other friends) on one hand and Maori and Pasifika on the other (and it's a bit of a tragedy as well because Maori, being Maori, get more attention despite, you know, doing better than Pasifika). The tiers are separated by 10-20 percentage points. So, in other words, roughly double that between male and female students.

That situation is repeated with deciles.

Figure 15 shows that, across the reported period, there are consistent differences in attainment of NCEA Level 1 between the decile bands. In 2012 Decile Band 1-3 was approximately 12 percentage points below Decile Band 4-7, which in turn was 9 percentage points below Decile Band 8-10. These differences have varied only slightly across the reported period.

Decile 8-10 appears to be hitting a ceiling at 87% for Level One. University Entrance is better for an international audience though, so here's that paragraph.

The difference between decile bands was more pronounced for University Entrance than any of the NCEA’s at nearly 30 percentage points overall. This was split fairly evenly with a difference of 13 percentage points between Decile Bands 4-7 and 8-10 and 16 percentage
points between Decile Bands 1-3 band 4-7.

8-10 at 77%, for reference.

- and, interestingly, especially working-class black or Hispanic boys.

Somehow the gap that disadvantages the three lowest performing groups when encompassing those who are part of all three is meant to be interesting? It's the logical conclusion...

It's funny how the people who are supposedly so very concerned about boys never seem to worry about addressing the really obvious racial and class disparities in access to quality education, despite the fact that that would very obviously help a lot more boys than trying to make sure middle-class white boys could get back ahead of those icky girls.

That's a blatant strawman (in bold). It's not even consistent with "Possibly because it's not true or a problem, and is a pretty good example of how a lot of these issues have a lot more "agenda" to them than reality." The not true bit being, "There are no systems in place to fix this systematic problem either." Because that's pretty clearly about all boys, not just a particular socio-ethnic subset as written here...

I think, for the record, that it's pretty clearly a problem (I mean, seriously? 39 points?) but that other problems do exist. I also think that steps exist to deal with the ethnic challenges in the US and if they don't I'm amazed.

Of course, it helps, from my point of view, that NZ very much does care about its "long brown tail" (from a 2009 article by Tapu Misa.. not so sure that name is right now) and has things like Te Kohitanga and other things to address them. The socio-economic challenge is addressed by the decile system -- more money for lower deciles (the rationale is that it makes up for a disparity at home).

[Nazi Flower Power]

For a really, really obnoxious example of rape culture, read this.

Wow. In three years on NSG, that might be the most disturbing thing I've ever seen anybody link to.

[Shellinameow]

I think another big part of rape culture, too, is people telling you not to tell anyone.
(Excuse me if this has already been brought up, but I'm bringing it up again!)

I came across a song on youtube a few days ago, that really hit me hard. It triggered me and empowered me all at the same time and before I knew it I was a pile of emotional mush in a chair.
Well I decided that I would share my thoughts. I said that I had been raped, and that this song really touched me, and if there were any other girls reading that out there, they should know that they are warriors too (the song is called Warrior). I've gotten a lot of 'thank you's and 'stay strong's which are nice and I appreciate. But then someone this morning commented and said: "ok i'm sorry someone did that to you but i don't think it's something you have to tell to the whole world. no offence.. "

Rape culture can be someone telling you not to tell anyone, absolutely. It's the method of shaming people that this has happened to by telling them this was their personal experience and they don't have to go around telling everyone.
While I agree, it's not something you have to tell everyone. I don't go into the grocery store and say "Hi I'm Shellby I was raped.", but I think that at events, during conversations of this nature, and especially on a song where every other comment is how all these girls are crying everywhere, it needs to be said, and people need to be more comfortable with sharing their experiences.
Okay rant over.

[The God-Realm]

There is no rape culture.

Silly feminists.

[Esternial]

There is no rape culture.

Silly feminists.

There's been enough evidence to indicate the contrary.

But of course your own opinion is all the evidence you need.

[Quintium]

There's been enough evidence to indicate the contrary.

Could you list that for me?

[Esternial]

There's been enough evidence to indicate the contrary.

Could you list that for me?

How about you start reading the OP and then the thread?

Some people's mentality proves my point well enough.

[Ostroeuropa]

Okay, since we already have a thread on this, I might as well bring it here: sentencing for rapists? What would you recommend?

Obviously, this isn't directed at attacking the cause of rape culture directly, but since we've heard cases in which hackers get more jail time than actual rapists (see this thread), figured this would be relevant.

I'd argue that demonstrating knowledge of consent is pretty essential for someone to be considered an adult.
Without knowledge of consent, how can one consent? etc.
So you can easily justify indefinate detention until they demonstrate they understand, on top of current sentences.
It's not prison. It's instiutionalization. They have demonstrated that because of their mental deficiency they are a danger to themselves and others.

[Quintium]

How about you start reading the OP and then the thread?

I've read through this thread on several occasions, but so far I've been unable to distill a precise definition of rape culture.
Can you, or anyone else, provide me with one?

Some people's mentality proves my point well enough.

How?

[Ostroeuropa]

How about you start reading the OP and then the thread?

I've read through this thread on several occasions, but so far I've been unable to distill a precise definition of rape culture.
Can you, or anyone else, provide me with one?

Some people's mentality proves my point well enough.

How?

Rape culture is a bundle of commonly held attitudes toward rape that blame victims, minimize responsibility of rapists, and shame victims into either not reporting or feeling bad about reporting.
It is also a network of myths, misunderstandings, and lies about rape that help to reinforce these attitudes.


An Example:

One way of effectively and immediately combatting rape culture is for people to stop using "Women are raped" statistics.
Using a unified "Men and Women are raped" statistic will do two things.

1. It will eliminate a portion of rape culture that discriminates against men (or go a long way in doing so.)
2. It will bump up the number of rapes we report when using those stats, which will make more people give a shit. (maybe.) or make them realize how bad the problem is.

The reason I advocate this change first is that it's incredibly easy to do seeing as the type of people who care about gender politics are precisely the type of people who use the "Women are raped" statistics. That means, typically, the type of people who give a shit about rape culture are the ones actually contributing to it on a regular basis in this regard.

Do you agree or not?

If you agree, do you think you'll now call out people when they use "Women are raped" stats for contributing to rape culture?

Usage of the above statistic contributes heavily to the misunderstanding/myth that men are not raped.

[Esternial]

How about you start reading the OP and then the thread?

I've read through this thread on several occasions, but so far I've been unable to distill a precise definition of rape culture.
Can you, or anyone else, provide me with one?

Some people's mentality proves my point well enough.

How?

As some people have proved on this forum, there are some who will even deny cases of rape, even though they are. There's also a degree of entitlement for sex that some people have.

People who blame the victim, tell them it's their own fault for getting raped.

And the media of course, as adequetly shown during the Steubenville case, almost completely ignore the victim and put all their attention on those that committed the crime (and were filmed doing it) because the girl didn't want to get interviewed.

Rape is pretty much a taboo. A large majority want to sweep any case of it under the rug to ignore how morally deprived humanity can be.

[The Republic of Lanos]

Imprisonment. Generally fines would also be okay, but not for something like rape.

So essentially while they're sitting in their jail cells, we'd be teaching them about consent?

Ironic that they don't learn consent when it comes to rape in prison.

[Individuality-ness]

So essentially while they're sitting in their jail cells, we'd be teaching them about consent?

Ironic that they don't learn consent when it comes to rape in prison.

I'd rather not have prison rape either. I think it's part of rape culture too -- the idea that prison rape is justified for doing something that landed your ass in prison in the first place. We joke about "dropping the soap" all the time, but is it wrong?

I think so.

[Olthar]

Ironic that they don't learn consent when it comes to rape in prison.

I'd rather not have prison rape either. I think it's part of rape culture too -- the idea that prison rape is justified for doing something that landed your ass in prison in the first place. We joke about "dropping the soap" all the time, but is it wrong?

I think so.

All rape is always wrong no matter what the context.

[The Republic of Lanos]

Ironic that they don't learn consent when it comes to rape in prison.

I'd rather not have prison rape either. I think it's part of rape culture too -- the idea that prison rape is justified for doing something that landed your ass in prison in the first place. We joke about "dropping the soap" all the time, but is it wrong?

I think so.

It's only funny until you're on the inside.

[Individuality-ness]

I'd rather not have prison rape either. I think it's part of rape culture too -- the idea that prison rape is justified for doing something that landed your ass in prison in the first place. We joke about "dropping the soap" all the time, but is it wrong?

I think so.

All rape is always wrong no matter what the context.

Agreed.

It's only funny until you're on the inside.

It shouldn't be funny ever.

[The Republic of Lanos]

All rape is always wrong no matter what the context.

Agreed.

It's only funny until you're on the inside.

It shouldn't be funny ever.

No one really talks about it except in the joke way.

[Individuality-ness]

It shouldn't be funny ever.

No one really talks about it except in the joke way.

I know that, which makes it worse.

[Esternial]

Ironic that they don't learn consent when it comes to rape in prison.

I'd rather not have prison rape either. I think it's part of rape culture too -- the idea that prison rape is justified for doing something that landed your ass in prison in the first place. We joke about "dropping the soap" all the time, but is it wrong?

I think so.

It's a type of humour. Either you like it or you don't. It's a matter of personal preference.

Lots of people who don't like dark humour either.

[The Steel Magnolia]

I'd rather not have prison rape either. I think it's part of rape culture too -- the idea that prison rape is justified for doing something that landed your ass in prison in the first place. We joke about "dropping the soap" all the time, but is it wrong?

I think so.

It's a type of humour. Either you like it or you don't. It's a matter of personal preference.

Lots of people who don't like dark humour either.

There's lots of dark humor that doesn't promote rape.