Regarding Rape Culture: Its Presence and Method of Attack

[Genivaria]

Cold and callous? I find it fitting tbh, if a person walks by an alley and see's someone being mugged/murdered/raped and doesn't even care enough to take out there phone and press those 3 numbers then fuck them.

I'm talking about the victim. If the victim fails to report, should they be made to feel terrible about it by societal rhetoric

Absolutely not. I can't even fathom what a rape victim must be feeling afterwards so what right do I have to tell them what they should or shouldn't have done?

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm talking about the victim. If the victim fails to report, should they be made to feel terrible about it by societal rhetoric

Absolutely not. I can't even fathom what a rape victim must be feeling afterwards so what right do I have to tell them what they should or shouldn't have done?

I'm acknowledging that the victim would, if they failed to report, suffer from the consequence of this mindset being introduced.
The question is, if it increased reporting rates, would it be worth it.
I'm going to base that on whether or not serial rapists cause the majority of rapes, and whether they go unreported until someone finally reports them.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm not entirely sure. Currently, and for good reason, sympathy is shown to rape victims who fail to report for whatever reason. Such as unlikelyhood to be believed etc.
If we make it a point to shame and belittle people who don't report, it may provide incentive.
Yes, it's incredibly cold and callous. But would it work.

If by "work" you mean "cause even more victim-blaming and additional psychological trauma for victims" then yes it would.

Providing more incentives for bystanders to report would be fine though.

Example: at a party, you overhear someone bragging to a friend about his sexual escapades involving an intoxicated or unconscious partner.

In purely calculating terms, would you rather someone be psychologically traumatized by two things for a failure to report, or would you rather they be psychologically traumatized, and then potentially more people also get traumatized from a rapist being on the loose.
As I said, it's entirely dependent on whether serial rapists cause a significant number of the rapes.
If they do, then rape victims who fail to report are in fact, rape enablers.
Do they have my sympathy? Absolutely. But that doesn't alter the fact that if they felt more fear from being a known rape enabler than fear of being a suspected liar, that they would report more often.
Like I said, it's a cold and detatched analysis, and I don't necessarily endorse it.

[Nailed to the Perch]

Should we try influencing the zeitgeist to compensate for current rape culture by starting to embrace the sentiment that if you don't report rapes, you are an awful person? Or would that be counter productive.
It's all well and good influencing people who give a shit about gender politics to stop contributing to rape culture, but I suspect most people are entirely unmoved by it.
It may be that the only way to reliably combat it is to raise up counter-perceptions and values that ALSO put blame on the victim if they fail to do certain things (Since the victim is the only person in the rapist-victim relationship we can reliably influence. The rapist is unlikely to care if they are an awful person>)

Jesus Christ, no.

[Ostroeuropa]

Do you care more about the feelings of the victim or more about preventing more rapes occuring.
If it's the former, then frankly I don't have time for you. It's a completely useless view.
The feelings of the victim are important. Incredibly so.
They can and should be however immediately sacrificed if you can prevent further incidents.

I'm asking flatly, would this approach increase report incidents.
Is the increase in report incidents likely to lead to an increase in prosecutions.
Are those prosecutions going to lead to less rape victims.

If the answer to all those questions is yes, I don't see how anyone can be rationally opposed to this.
If the answer to any of them is no, then ofcourse it's an incredibly stupid thing to do to pointlessly insult victims.

[Nailed to the Perch]

Mostly because it keeps justice from being served. Unfortunately, as it's been said in the Slate article I linked, a lot of it comes from the fact that these victims fear that they won't be believed by police. Or that the rapist would retaliate or whatever.

Oh I was talking about bystanders reporting it not the victims, I understand why the victims don't.
They probably don't have their head's together after such an experience.

Erm, no. In our current culture, not reporting a rape is an entirely rational decision. Choosing "let a rapist get away with it" over "get treated like shit, quite possibly receive death threats, have strangers on the internet pontificate about what a stupid whore I must be, lose many if not all of my friends and family and possibly my job, and incidentally the rapist will STILL probably get away with it" isn't a sign of "not having your head together" so much as "making a depressing but entirely sensible choice between a shitty option and and even shittier option."

[Ostroeuropa]

Oh I was talking about bystanders reporting it not the victims, I understand why the victims don't.
They probably don't have their head's together after such an experience.

Erm, no. In our current culture, not reporting a rape is an entirely rational decision. Choosing "let a rapist get away with it" over "get treated like shit, quite possibly receive death threats, have strangers on the internet pontificate about what a stupid whore I must be, lose many if not all of my friends and family and possibly my job, and incidentally the rapist will STILL probably get away with it" isn't a sign of "not having your head together" so much as "making a depressing but entirely sensible choice between a shitty option and and even shittier option."

That's the premise of my proposal. "Not reporting is currently a sensible choice. We need to make it the worse choice."

Let me ask you this; if telling people to cut out their rape culture supporting bullshit simply didn't work, would you endorse the method I outlined if it did (Which it would.) even though it makes some victims suffer more psychological trauma.

[Individuality-ness]

Erm, no. In our current culture, not reporting a rape is an entirely rational decision. Choosing "let a rapist get away with it" over "get treated like shit, quite possibly receive death threats, have strangers on the internet pontificate about what a stupid whore I must be, lose many if not all of my friends and family and possibly my job, and incidentally the rapist will STILL probably get away with it" isn't a sign of "not having your head together" so much as "making a depressing but entirely sensible choice between a shitty option and and even shittier option."

That's the premise of my proposal. "Not reporting is currently a sensible choice. We need to make it the worse choice."

Encouraging rape victims to report and getting rid of rape culture would solve the problem. Not "if you don't report you should be shamed!".

[Nailed to the Perch]

Erm, no. In our current culture, not reporting a rape is an entirely rational decision. Choosing "let a rapist get away with it" over "get treated like shit, quite possibly receive death threats, have strangers on the internet pontificate about what a stupid whore I must be, lose many if not all of my friends and family and possibly my job, and incidentally the rapist will STILL probably get away with it" isn't a sign of "not having your head together" so much as "making a depressing but entirely sensible choice between a shitty option and and even shittier option."

That's the premise of my proposal.

Except instead of trying to make the shittier option better, you're trying to make the less shitty option worse. That's the sort of thing that's more likely to drive a lot of rape victims to option three: stick guns in their mouths since there is no option where they get to survive without their lives being ruined.

[Nailed to the Perch]

Erm, no. In our current culture, not reporting a rape is an entirely rational decision. Choosing "let a rapist get away with it" over "get treated like shit, quite possibly receive death threats, have strangers on the internet pontificate about what a stupid whore I must be, lose many if not all of my friends and family and possibly my job, and incidentally the rapist will STILL probably get away with it" isn't a sign of "not having your head together" so much as "making a depressing but entirely sensible choice between a shitty option and and even shittier option."

That's the premise of my proposal. "Not reporting is currently a sensible choice. We need to make it the worse choice."

Let me ask you this; if telling people to cut out their rape culture supporting bullshit simply didn't work, would you endorse the method I outlined if it did (Which it would.) even though it makes some victims suffer more psychological trauma.

No. Because I'm not a monster.

[Ostroeuropa]

That's the premise of my proposal. "Not reporting is currently a sensible choice. We need to make it the worse choice."

Encouraging rape victims to report and getting rid of rape culture would solve the problem. Not "if you don't report you should be shamed!".

If it worked it would solve the problem.
It may work.
What if it doesn't.
What if people are more motivated by fear of disapproval than they are for desire for approval.

[The Blaatschapen]

[PETITION]: Apparently someone's using Kickstarter to finance a book on how to sexually assault people. WHAT THE FLYING FUCK!?!
[PETITION]: Also, if you haven't already, this is a petition to get the FBI to acknowledge "forced to penetrate" as rape.

Signed the first.

Not the second, since I'm not American.

[Genivaria]

Encouraging rape victims to report and getting rid of rape culture would solve the problem. Not "if you don't report you should be shamed!".

If it worked it would solve the problem.
It may work.
What if it doesn't.
What if people are more motivated by fear of disapproval than they are for desire for approval.

I would rather it be a feeling of civil duty and moral obligation but whatever works.

[Ostroeuropa]

That's the premise of my proposal.

Except instead of trying to make the shittier option better, you're trying to make the less shitty option worse. That's the sort of thing that's more likely to drive a lot of rape victims to option three: stick guns in their mouths since there is no option where they get to survive without their lives being ruined.

Then ofcourse, it wouldn't lead to more incidents of reporting. That's a fine objection.
As I said, i'm not endorsing the view. I'm asking the question.

[Individuality-ness]

Encouraging rape victims to report and getting rid of rape culture would solve the problem. Not "if you don't report you should be shamed!".

If it worked it would solve the problem.
It may work.
What if it doesn't.
What if people are more motivated by fear of disapproval than they are for desire for approval.

That... that doesn't really change anything. Shaming victims for not reporting is stupid.

[Individuality-ness]

[PETITION]: Apparently someone's using Kickstarter to finance a book on how to sexually assault people. WHAT THE FLYING FUCK!?!
[PETITION]: Also, if you haven't already, this is a petition to get the FBI to acknowledge "forced to penetrate" as rape.

Signed the first.

Not the second, since I'm not American.

Understandable. I'm trying to bring the second one to the attention of US NSGers.

[Ostroeuropa]

If it worked it would solve the problem.
It may work.
What if it doesn't.
What if people are more motivated by fear of disapproval than they are for desire for approval.

That... that doesn't really change anything. Shaming victims for not reporting is stupid.

How is it stupid. There is a rational basis to shame them for it.
By not reporting they are allowing a rapist to definately go free, who may rape again.
Any further rapes that occur are only able to occur as a result of their decision.
Now, does that make it a nice thing? No.
But would it work. Thats the point.
Someone already said "No, they'd just commit suicide." that's a decent objection.

[Ostroeuropa]

That's the premise of my proposal. "Not reporting is currently a sensible choice. We need to make it the worse choice."

Let me ask you this; if telling people to cut out their rape culture supporting bullshit simply didn't work, would you endorse the method I outlined if it did (Which it would.) even though it makes some victims suffer more psychological trauma.

No. Because I'm not a monster.

You'd rather have more rapes occur than hurt peoples feelings.
Fine. Like I said, if that's your position then i'm done with you, you have an entirely useless ethics system.
If however your stance is "No, it wouldn't reduce rape occurances." then thats fine. I probably agree.

[Individuality-ness]

That... that doesn't really change anything. Shaming victims for not reporting is stupid.

How is it stupid. There is a rational basis to shame them for it.
By not reporting they are allowing a rapist to definately go free, who may rape again.
Any further rapes that occur are only able to occur as a result of their decision.
Now, does that make it a nice thing? No.
But would it work. Thats the point.
Someone already said "No, they'd just commit suicide." that's a decent objection.

I would argue that it would have the opposite effect of what you're intending to do. It still puts the onus on the victim and blames the victim if a serial rapist goes our and rapes more people because "hey, the first victim should have reported, amirite?!".

Not to mention that it would push them to commit suicide, as NttP already said.

[Ostroeuropa]

How is it stupid. There is a rational basis to shame them for it.
By not reporting they are allowing a rapist to definately go free, who may rape again.
Any further rapes that occur are only able to occur as a result of their decision.
Now, does that make it a nice thing? No.
But would it work. Thats the point.
Someone already said "No, they'd just commit suicide." that's a decent objection.

I would argue that it would have the opposite effect of what you're intending to do. It still puts the onus on the victim and blames the victim if a serial rapist goes our and rapes more people because "hey, the first victim should have reported, amirite?!".

Not to mention that it would push them to commit suicide, as NttP already said.

The rapist has already demonstrated they are unlikely to be swayed by ethical arguments and considerations.
The victim is the only one we are sure to be able to influence. The focus must be on them, and on other members of the public. I also think it's important to discuss every possibility. I've said from the outset I don't necessarily endorse this view.

[Nailed to the Perch]

Any further rapes that occur are only able to occur as a result of their decision.

No. They occur because a rapist chooses to rape.

Blaming a rapist's previous victims for the actions of that rapist in the future is still victim-blaming.

[Individuality-ness]

I would argue that it would have the opposite effect of what you're intending to do. It still puts the onus on the victim and blames the victim if a serial rapist goes our and rapes more people because "hey, the first victim should have reported, amirite?!".

Not to mention that it would push them to commit suicide, as NttP already said.

The rapist has already demonstrated they are unlikely to be swayed by ethical arguments and considerations.
The victim is the only one we are sure to be able to influence. The focus must be on them, and on other members of the public. I also think it's important to discuss every possibility. I've said from the outset I don't necessarily endorse this view.

I'm aware, I'm just saying that it still blames the victim for what a rapist chose to do, albeit indirectly. This doesn't solve anything.

Furthermore, this might be a bit of a stretch, but if rapists knew that victims are shamed for not reporting, it might give them incentive to make sure that they'd never report, ever.

[Ostroeuropa]

Any further rapes that occur are only able to occur as a result of their decision.

No. They occur because a rapist chooses to rape.

Blaming a rapist's previous victims for the actions of that rapist in the future is still victim-blaming.

With good reason this time.
Blaming the victim if they do something wrong isn't blaming them for being a victim.
It's blaming them for allowing other people to become victims.
Therefore, it isn't victim-blaming.

[Ostroeuropa]

The rapist has already demonstrated they are unlikely to be swayed by ethical arguments and considerations.
The victim is the only one we are sure to be able to influence. The focus must be on them, and on other members of the public. I also think it's important to discuss every possibility. I've said from the outset I don't necessarily endorse this view.

I'm aware, I'm just saying that it still blames the victim for what a rapist chose to do, albeit indirectly. This doesn't solve anything.

Furthermore, this might be a bit of a stretch, but if rapists knew that victims are shamed for not reporting, it might give them incentive to make sure that they'd never report, ever.

The logical extension of that stretch is that if we combat rape culture, we'll end up increasing the number of murders. It's not a stretch i'm willing to consider. If only because i'm in a cynical mood and I know what the answer would be if I asked it before i've had my self-medication.

[Nailed to the Perch]

No. They occur because a rapist chooses to rape.

Blaming a rapist's previous victims for the actions of that rapist in the future is still victim-blaming.

With good reason this time.
Blaming the victim if they do something wrong isn't blaming them for being a victim.
It's blaming them for allowing other people to become victims.
Therefore, it isn't victim-blaming.

I don't believe I can respond to this shit properly without breaking at least one forum rule.

Therefore, I'll just stick with saying that this position is wrong, it is sick, it is hateful, and it is shameful.