Regarding Rape Culture: Its Presence and Method of Attack

[Ostroeuropa]

If I learned this stuff in a basic GSCE level psychology class like, years and years ago, how the fuck did it take the police this long?

Because Psych classes aren't required courses like, almost anywhere in America.

The section in question (Interviewing) could be covered in a single night-class. An in depth look could take maybe a week of training.

This isn't the polices fault, by the way.
They aren't the ones who get to choose what training they go on. Blame the people in charge of the police.

[Individuality-ness]

Donut bribery. *nod*

I wish I could get bribed in donuts instead of beer... no wait, I don't.

I wish I could get bribed in donuts OR beer. Instead I get peanut M&Ms.

[Condunum]

Here's the thing: That's the only way they're taught how to treat them. According to the article, police officers are taught to focus on events and timeline. That's not really a possibility for rape victims, and it's not their fault for not knowing that. It's something that must be changed, but don't demonize the ignorant.

*sigh* Very well, still pisses me off though.

The problem really lies in that when police officers use this technique, victims can't give proper accounts and the DA won't have a strong enough case, or the defense will have so many easy to use holes that they destroy the case, all because of ineffective interrogation techniques. If the technique changes, so will the way cases go.

[Genivaria]

If I learned this stuff in a basic GSCE level psychology class like, years and years ago, how the fuck did it take the police this long?

Because Psych classes aren't required courses like, almost anywhere in America.

I actually think they should be, knowing how to work with people should be what's being taught as the first choice, not intimidation or force....or maybe all the cops I've met are just assholes idk.

[Individuality-ness]

I nearly vomited from that first one. Why would that get any funding?

Very, very vindictive MRAs?

Assholes. *nod* Or PUAs. Pro-feminist MRAs I don't think would fund this shit.

[Condunum]

Because Psych classes aren't required courses like, almost anywhere in America.

The section in question (Interviewing) could be covered in a single night-class. An in depth look could take maybe a week of training.

This isn't the polices fault, by the way.
They aren't the ones who get to choose what training they go on. Blame the people in charge of the police.

Indeed. Even so, sometimes those in charge aren't to blame, simply because they have no clue that this is a problem. That's why stories like this need to be spread, for awareness.

[Condunum]

Because Psych classes aren't required courses like, almost anywhere in America.

I actually think they should be, knowing how to work with people should be what's being taught as the first choice, not intimidation or force....or maybe all the cops I've met are just assholes idk.

They're taught to be assholes, because they have to be clinical.

[Ostroeuropa]

The section in question (Interviewing) could be covered in a single night-class. An in depth look could take maybe a week of training.

This isn't the polices fault, by the way.
They aren't the ones who get to choose what training they go on. Blame the people in charge of the police.

Indeed. Even so, sometimes those in charge aren't to blame, simply because they have no clue that this is a problem. That's why stories like this need to be spread, for awareness.

It's their job to know this sort of thing is going on.
They only aren't to blame if they have asked people to investigate, and the investigation came back with "Everything is fine." when it really wasn't.
If they never asked someone to investigate, they are completely at fault. Thats the responsibility of management.
It is entirely forseeable that the police conduct may in some way inhibit prosecution. That's like, the PRIMARY THING you are supposed to stop them doing as a manager of the police force. and they didn't. They fucked up.

[Genivaria]

I actually think they should be, knowing how to work with people should be what's being taught as the first choice, not intimidation or force....or maybe all the cops I've met are just assholes idk.

They're taught to be assholes, because they have to be clinical.

Doctors and Psychiatrists are clinical and yet I do not perceive them as assholes, they're actually patient and taught bedside manner.

[Condunum]

They're taught to be assholes, because they have to be clinical.

Doctors and Psychiatrists are clinical and yet I do not perceive them as assholes, they're actually patient and taught bedside manner.

Yes, and Police aren't given the benefit of being the friendly guy in the friendly environment. They don't get to use bedside manner, because of the environment they must be in.

[Genivaria]

Doctors and Psychiatrists are clinical and yet I do not perceive them as assholes, they're actually patient and taught bedside manner.

Yes, and Police aren't given the benefit of being the friendly guy in the friendly environment. They don't get to use bedside manner, because of the environment they must be in.

I see your point.

[Ostroeuropa]

Should we try influencing the zeitgeist to compensate for current rape culture by starting to embrace the sentiment that if you don't report rapes, you are an awful person? Or would that be counter productive.
It's all well and good influencing people who give a shit about gender politics to stop contributing to rape culture, but I suspect most people are entirely unmoved by it.
It may be that the only way to reliably combat it is to raise up counter-perceptions and values that ALSO put blame on the victim if they fail to do certain things (Since the victim is the only person in the rapist-victim relationship we can reliably influence. The rapist is unlikely to care if they are an awful person>)

[Cenetra]

Last I checked, burglary trials don't tend to focus on the status of the victim's windows, and there isn't a large section of the populace that believes "It's not burglary if the windows are open."

That's not a good analogy.

I was referring to the book, and I explicitly said it doesn't work in these cases. I guess you deleted the rest of the post from the quote because then you wouldn't have gotten me to respond to this one, seeing as I can if I like respond to it by just quoting the whole of the original.
You must really like me posting.

I'm not sure why people seem so desperate to accuse each other of dishonesty in this thread. I quoted those lines because I was responding to that specific analogy. I was also under the impression that if a devil's advocate makes a flawed argument, it's perfectly acceptable to point out those flaws.

[Genivaria]

Should we try influencing the zeitgeist to compensate for current rape culture by starting to embrace the sentiment that if you don't report rapes, you are an awful person? Or would that be counter productive.

Uh, isn't that the message that's already being sent? Except it's more 'crime in general' then just rape your expected to report.

[Ostroeuropa]

Should we try influencing the zeitgeist to compensate for current rape culture by starting to embrace the sentiment that if you don't report rapes, you are an awful person? Or would that be counter productive.

Uh, isn't that the message that's already being sent? Except it's more 'crime in general' then just rape your expected to report.

I'm not entirely sure. Currently, and for good reason, sympathy is shown to rape victims who fail to report for whatever reason. Such as unlikelyhood to be believed etc.
If we make it a point to shame and belittle people who don't report, it may provide incentive.
Yes, it's incredibly cold and callous. But would it work.

[Genivaria]

Uh, isn't that the message that's already being sent? Except it's more 'crime in general' then just rape your expected to report.

I'm not entirely sure. Currently, and for good reason, sympathy is shown to rape victims who fail to report for whatever reason. Such as unlikelyhood to be believed etc.

Well I mean I remember being told about Crimestoppers all the way back in elementary school, saying that it was pretty much on us to report it.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm not entirely sure. Currently, and for good reason, sympathy is shown to rape victims who fail to report for whatever reason. Such as unlikelyhood to be believed etc.

Well I mean I remember being told about Crimestoppers all the way back in elementary school, saying that it was pretty much on us to report it.

Then why is a lack of reporting such an issue? The entire argument about rape culture is that it blames victims, and that it pressures them into not reporting.
The nice way around that is to stop rape culture occuring.
The cold, and probably easier, way to stop rape culture from working is to make it even more damning and embarrassing for people who fail to report.
I don't necessarily advocate this, since it's completely detached from the human element and is purely concerned with numbers.
Do I think such an approach would drive up reporting incidents? Yes.
Is it worth the price? Not sure.

[Genivaria]

Uh, isn't that the message that's already being sent? Except it's more 'crime in general' then just rape your expected to report.

I'm not entirely sure. Currently, and for good reason, sympathy is shown to rape victims who fail to report for whatever reason. Such as unlikelyhood to be believed etc.
If we make it a point to shame and belittle people who don't report, it may provide incentive.
Yes, it's incredibly cold and callous. But would it work.

Cold and callous? I find it fitting tbh, if a person walks by an alley and see's someone being mugged/murdered/raped and doesn't even care enough to take out there phone and press those 3 numbers then fuck them.

[Genivaria]

Well I mean I remember being told about Crimestoppers all the way back in elementary school, saying that it was pretty much on us to report it.

Then why is a lack of reporting such an issue?

Of crime in general or rape? The answer to both would be 'I have no idea'.

[Individuality-ness]

Well I mean I remember being told about Crimestoppers all the way back in elementary school, saying that it was pretty much on us to report it.

Then why is a lack of reporting such an issue?

Mostly because it keeps justice from being served. Unfortunately, as it's been said in the Slate article I linked, a lot of it comes from the fact that these victims fear that they won't be believed by police. Or that the rapist would retaliate or whatever.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm not entirely sure. Currently, and for good reason, sympathy is shown to rape victims who fail to report for whatever reason. Such as unlikelyhood to be believed etc.
If we make it a point to shame and belittle people who don't report, it may provide incentive.
Yes, it's incredibly cold and callous. But would it work.

Cold and callous? I find it fitting tbh, if a person walks by an alley and see's someone being mugged/murdered/raped and doesn't even care enough to take out there phone and press those 3 numbers then fuck them.

I'm talking about the victim. If the victim fails to report, should they be made to feel terrible about it by societal rhetoric

[Ostroeuropa]

Then why is a lack of reporting such an issue?

Mostly because it keeps justice from being served. Unfortunately, as it's been said in the Slate article I linked, a lot of it comes from the fact that these victims fear that they won't be believed by police. Or that the rapist would retaliate or whatever.

As to the first point, the argument is based around the notion that people are more afraid of being called a liar than they are afraid of being called cowards.
Now, it's definitionally very difficult to get someone for something that hasn't been reported.
But in principle; if we could know someone is a rape victim and has not reported it, should they be insulted and such for it?

If we could craft a culture where people feared being a known non-reporter far more than they feared being an accused liar, would you do it.

[Genivaria]

Then why is a lack of reporting such an issue?

Mostly because it keeps justice from being served. Unfortunately, as it's been said in the Slate article I linked, a lot of it comes from the fact that these victims fear that they won't be believed by police. Or that the rapist would retaliate or whatever.

Oh I was talking about bystanders reporting it not the victims, I understand why the victims don't.
They probably don't have their head's together after such an experience.

[Cenetra]

Uh, isn't that the message that's already being sent? Except it's more 'crime in general' then just rape your expected to report.

I'm not entirely sure. Currently, and for good reason, sympathy is shown to rape victims who fail to report for whatever reason. Such as unlikelyhood to be believed etc.
If we make it a point to shame and belittle people who don't report, it may provide incentive.
Yes, it's incredibly cold and callous. But would it work.

If by "work" you mean "cause even more victim-blaming and additional psychological trauma for victims" then yes it would.

Providing more incentives for bystanders to report would be fine though.

Example: at a party, you overhear someone bragging to a friend about his sexual escapades involving an intoxicated or unconscious partner.

[Individuality-ness]

Mostly because it keeps justice from being served. Unfortunately, as it's been said in the Slate article I linked, a lot of it comes from the fact that these victims fear that they won't be believed by police. Or that the rapist would retaliate or whatever.

As to the first point, the argument is based around the notion that people are more afraid of being called a liar than they are afraid of being called cowards.
Now, it's definitionally very difficult to get someone for something that hasn't been reported.
But in principle; if we could know someone is a rape victim and has not reported it, should they be insulted and such for it?

If we could craft a culture where people feared being a known non-reporter far more than they feared being an accused liar, would you do it.

I wouldn't want to shame them for not reporting. I would encourage them to report, of course, but I don't think insults are going to help, because then that implies that if you don't report, that the event didn't really happen, ergo LIAR.