Regarding Rape Culture: Its Presence and Method of Attack

[Mike the Progressive]

This thread has a lot of negative energy.

Well yeah it has a bunch of feminazis. So of course, it's going to have a lot of negative energy.

[Neo Art]

Nah, it's telling that you don't want there to be a rape problem. You don't want to be lumped in with the group that predominantly does it.

Which is fine, but instead of pretending the problem doesn't exist, why don't you work to solve it instead?

There is a rape problem. As long as rape exists it is a problem. I was simply saying that her post left something out.



But there is a problem. And, and unfortunately until something changes a lot of good people are gonna get shit housed, on both sides of the aisle.

This again is the problem of false equivalency. As I've said on occasion, if your political belief is "let's kill all the jews" and my political belief is "actually, I don't think we should kill any of the jews", then "ok, let's kill half the jews" is not a reasonable compromise.

Is false rape accusations bad? yes. Sure. You know what else is bad? Being raped.

You know what's far, far, FAR more likely than being falsely accused of committing raped?

Being raped.

Phrasing this as a problem on "both sides of the aisle" as if on one side you had rape victims, and on the other side you had people who have been falsely accused of being rapists, and both sides are equal in magnitude and severity is asinine, and monstrously disingenuous.

So no, a lot of good people "on both sides of the aisle" are getting "shit housed". A very large number on one side (the "being raped") is, and a very small significantly no larger than any other crime (the "falsely accused side") on the other.

[Nailed to the Perch]

Yeah but pretending that it's at all equal is asinine and unhelpful and makes you a rape apologist.

OH so now i'm not i'm a rapist, I'm a rape apologist.

I see. Still a scumbag, just not the scumbag I originally thought you were calling me.

Gotcha.

Claiming that the majority of people who report being raped are lying in the face of literally all the evidence saying otherwise is pretty much the definition of rape apologism, yes.

I really don't get people who do this whole "how dare you say I'm a racist just because I think black people are inferior!" schtick.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Says an inherently flawed study.

No, says literally every study ever done on the subject. Even the completely bullshit Kanin study MRA types like to pull out still puts "unfounded" rape claims in the minority.

well yeah, minority in the strictest terms.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

OH so now i'm not i'm a rapist, I'm a rape apologist.

I see. Still a scumbag, just not the scumbag I originally thought you were calling me.

Gotcha.

Claiming that the majority of people who report being raped are lying in the face of literally all the evidence saying otherwise is pretty much the definition of rape apologism, yes.

I really don't get people who do this whole "how dare you say I'm a racist just because I think black people are inferior!" schtick.

I literally never said that the majority of rapes accusations of lying. That's what you wanted me to say.

I was responding to someones claim that anyone who's had the charges drop, more than likely got away with rape. Which is biased as hell.

[Neo Art]

OH so now i'm not i'm a rapist, I'm a rape apologist.

I see. Still a scumbag, just not the scumbag I originally thought you were calling me.

Gotcha.

Claiming that the majority of people who report being raped are lying in the face of literally all the evidence saying otherwise is pretty much the definition of rape apologism, yes.

I really don't get people who do this whole "how dare you say I'm a racist just because I think black people are inferior!" schtick.

Nah, see, it's a bit more subtle than that. It's "how dare you say I'm a racist just because I suggested that maybe the reason a disproportionate number of minorities live in poverty is because black people are just dumber than white people."

It's, in some ways, almost more despicable than just coming right out and admitting it. Because the only reason people make this kind of argument is they think they can then claim "what, I didn't SAY that black people are stupid criminals from birth, I'M JUST ASKING!"

[Neo Art]

Claiming that the majority of people who report being raped are lying in the face of literally all the evidence saying otherwise is pretty much the definition of rape apologism, yes.

I really don't get people who do this whole "how dare you say I'm a racist just because I think black people are inferior!" schtick.

I literally never said that the majority of rapes accusations of lying. That's what you wanted me to say.


I was responding to someones claim that anyone who's had the charges drop, more than likely got away with rape. Which is biased as hell.

"I'm not SAYING that the majority of rape accusations are false, I'm just saying that it's wrong to believe that someone who was charged, but not convicted of rape probably got away with rape!"


fucking pathetic.

[Nailed to the Perch]

Claiming that the majority of people who report being raped are lying in the face of literally all the evidence saying otherwise is pretty much the definition of rape apologism, yes.

I really don't get people who do this whole "how dare you say I'm a racist just because I think black people are inferior!" schtick.

I literally never said that the majority of rapes accusations of lying. That's what you wanted me to say.

I was responding to someones claim that anyone who's had the charges drop, more than likely got away with rape. Which is biased as hell.

No, it's TRUE as hell.

Seriously, dude, "but I really WANT to blame bitches" pales as evidence compared to, again, literally all the actual evidence.

[Neo Art]

No, says literally every study ever done on the subject. Even the completely bullshit Kanin study MRA types like to pull out still puts "unfounded" rape claims in the minority.

well yeah, minority in the strictest terms.

"Well, it's only TECHNICALLY a minority event because occurs less than half of the time! So there!"

[Nailed to the Perch]

No, says literally every study ever done on the subject. Even the completely bullshit Kanin study MRA types like to pull out still puts "unfounded" rape claims in the minority.

well yeah, minority in the strictest terms.

"Well, sure, 2+2=4 in the strictest terms, but I'm still gonna claim that it equals 5."

Too funny.

ETA: Friggin' ninja lawyers...

[Neo Art]

well yeah, minority in the strictest terms.

"Well, sure, 2+2=4 in the strictest terms, but I'm still gonna claim that it equals 5."

Too funny.

ETA: Friggin' ninja lawyers...

2+2=4 is only true in the strictest terms.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

There is a rape problem. As long as rape exists it is a problem. I was simply saying that her post left something out.



But there is a problem. And, and unfortunately until something changes a lot of good people are gonna get shit housed, on both sides of the aisle.

This again is the problem of false equivalency. As I've said on occasion, if your political belief is "let's kill all the jews" and my political belief is "actually, I don't think we should kill any of the jews", then "ok, let's kill half the jews" is not a reasonable compromise.

Is false rape accusations bad? yes. Sure. You know what else is bad? Being raped.

You know what's far, far, FAR more likely than being falsely accused of committing raped?

Being raped.

Phrasing this as a problem on "both sides of the aisle" as if on one side you had rape victims, and on the other side you had people who have been falsely accused of being rapists, and both sides are equal in magnitude and severity is asinine, and monstrously disingenuous.

So no, a lot of good people "on both sides of the aisle" are getting "shit housed". A very large number on one side (the "being raped") is, and a very small significantly no larger than any other crime (the "falsely accused side") on the other.

And I have a fair degree of skepticism, where a crime is inherently based on a persons consent, and which no physical evidence can prove the crime occurred only the act in which the crime is based, that a study that cites criminal proceedings as it's sole source, has a much larger margin of error than it would claim. And that swings both ways.

In a sense, by definition the crime is based inherently on the Word of an Accuser. And that is why victims get "put on trial" during trial.

[Saint Jade IV]

Your still not making sense. How the hell does the act of sex have morality or immorality to it?

Dafuq? I literally just listed moral concepts about Sex. Monogamy, Polygamy, Adultry, Pre-Marital Sex, Sodomy, Sadism, Sadomasochism, Rape.

No they aren't. They are moral concepts about relationships, and a list of some different kinds of sex.

Rape and consensual sexual intercourse are not the same thing.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

well yeah, minority in the strictest terms.

"Well, it's only TECHNICALLY a minority event because occurs less than half of the time! So there!"

Well that is what the Kanin study claimed.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Dafuq? I literally just listed moral concepts about Sex. Monogamy, Polygamy, Adultry, Pre-Marital Sex, Sodomy, Sadism, Sadomasochism, Rape.

No they aren't. They are moral concepts about relationships, and a list of some different kinds of sex.

Rape and consensual sexual intercourse are not the same thing.

Society has had moral connotations about sex in all those forms.

Pre-Marital was largely considered bad, for quite a long time. There's even evidence to suggest it's bad for you.
Sodomy, long time considered bad until the last 200 years or so in western culture.
Adultery and Rape, still considered bad, in most "enlightened cultures" though Adultery is losing a lot of steam.


Sadism and Sadomasochism, have only really become socially acceptable, though not mainstream, in the last, couple decades really.

[Cannot think of a name]

There is a rape problem. As long as rape exists it is a problem. I was simply saying that her post left something out.



But there is a problem. And, and unfortunately until something changes a lot of good people are gonna get shit housed, on both sides of the aisle.

This again is the problem of false equivalency. As I've said on occasion, if your political belief is "let's kill all the jews" and my political belief is "actually, I don't think we should kill any of the jews", then "ok, let's kill half the jews" is not a reasonable compromise.

Is false rape accusations bad? yes. Sure. You know what else is bad? Being raped.

You know what's far, far, FAR more likely than being falsely accused of committing raped?

Being raped.

Phrasing this as a problem on "both sides of the aisle" as if on one side you had rape victims, and on the other side you had people who have been falsely accused of being rapists, and both sides are equal in magnitude and severity is asinine, and monstrously disingenuous.

So no, a lot of good people "on both sides of the aisle" are getting "shit housed". A very large number on one side (the "being raped") is, and a very small significantly no larger than any other crime (the "falsely accused side") on the other.

Do we do this with any other crime we seek to prevent? I mean, do we wring our hands about prosecuting theft because on occasion someone is wrongly accused of being a thief? "Look, no one is saying murder isn't a bad thing, but sometimes someone gets accused of murder when they didn't murder no one! Who's talking about that when we bring up the subject of murder?"

It's this incongruity that gnaws at me. That for some reason this crime is the one that's somehow less of a crime because sometimes the wrong person is convicted when we don't do that for other crimes.

[Saint Jade IV]

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/tennis/tennis-star-serena-williams-sparks-outrage-with-rape-comment/story-fnii0pkt-1226666048147

Yep. No such thing as rape culture. No such thing as victim blaming.

Your point being? How does society's moral paranoia about sex indicate that there is no rape culture?

We have a society that Glorifies Sex. It's a Sex Culture. The acceptability of rape, is an inherent result from the De-Moralization of sex in culture. When Sex no longer has any Morality ascribed to it, Rape no longer has any intrinsic meaning. It becomes no worse than anything else.

An it's not Paranoia, science is on my side here. There's been many studies about the problematic effects of de-stigmatizing sex.

If there are so many studies demonstrating harmful overall effects on society, by all means, post a few.

[Neo Art]

and which no physical evidence can prove the crime occurred only the act in which the crime is based,

Other crimes that leave no physical evidence:

larceny (physical possession of the stolen good doesn't count, that's only proof of the act in which the crime is based)
driving under the influence (BAC tests don't count, those are only proof of the act in which the crime is based)
trespass (physical presence on the land doesn't count, that's only proof of the act in which the crime is based)
murder (physical presence of a dead body doesn't, that's only proof of the act in which the crime is based)

In fact, the ONLY crimes I can think of that leaves DIRECT physical evidence inherent in the act of committing the crime are battery and arson. Those are the only crimes where I can think of where the presence of physical evidence speaks DIRECTLY to the commission of a crime. In EVERY OTHER CRIME, physical evidence merely points to the existence of an event which, in particular contexts, is illegal, and then relies on other evidence to substantiate that context.

Somehow, nobody ever complains about all those whores falsely accusing men of purse snatching JUST BECAUSE there's some physical evidence that suggests he was in possession of her purse, and she testifies under oath that she didn't give it to him voluntarily.

Jesus fucking Christ, in NO OTHER CRIME do we hold victims to this absurd standard of "just because we found him with your purse, and you testify that he stole your purse, that doesn't MEAN anything, after all, he said you gave it to him willingly, you lying lying whore."

[Miss Defied]

No they aren't. They are moral concepts about relationships, and a list of some different kinds of sex.

Rape and consensual sexual intercourse are not the same thing.

Society has had moral connotations about sex in all those forms.

Pre-Marital was largely considered bad, for quite a long time. There's even evidence to suggest it's bad for you.
Sodomy, long time considered bad until the last 200 years or so in western culture.
Adultery and Rape, still considered bad, in most "enlightened cultures" though Adultery is losing a lot of steam.


Sadism and Sadomasochism, have only really become socially acceptable, though not mainstream, in the last, couple decades really.

What the holy hell am I reading?
No, this is all just so wrong.

[Saint Jade IV]

No they aren't. They are moral concepts about relationships, and a list of some different kinds of sex.

Rape and consensual sexual intercourse are not the same thing.

Society has had moral connotations about sex in all those forms.

Pre-Marital was largely considered bad, for quite a long time. There's even evidence to suggest it's bad for you.
Sodomy, long time considered bad until the last 200 years or so in western culture.
Adultery and Rape, still considered bad, in most "enlightened cultures" though Adultery is losing a lot of steam.


Sadism and Sadomasochism, have only really become socially acceptable, though not mainstream, in the last, couple decades really.

Again, you are commenting on different types of relationships, of which sex forms a part. Sex is not the moral issue in adultery. In fact, to be adulterous, sex doesn't even have to take place.

Concepts of morality surrounding pre-marital sex are not related to sex - they are related to the belief that women were chattel to be owned.

As for sodomy, the prohibitions surrounding that resulted from a reflection of society's larger distaste for homosexuality.

And again, you have yet to demonstrate that sex itself is a moral or immoral act. We ascribe morals to this act, as we do to a number of acts. Sex itself is not inherently moral.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

We have a society that Glorifies Sex. It's a Sex Culture. The acceptability of rape, is an inherent result from the De-Moralization of sex in culture. When Sex no longer has any Morality ascribed to it, Rape no longer has any intrinsic meaning. It becomes no worse than anything else.

An it's not Paranoia, science is on my side here. There's been many studies about the problematic effects of de-stigmatizing sex.

If there are so many studies demonstrating harmful overall effects on society, by all means, post a few.

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/20 ... f-culture/

www.k-state.edu/psych/research/document ... ct3rev.doc

http://theresurgence.com/2011/11/19/7-n ... ts-of-porn

http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_brief ... ndex1.html

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Society has had moral connotations about sex in all those forms.

Pre-Marital was largely considered bad, for quite a long time. There's even evidence to suggest it's bad for you.
Sodomy, long time considered bad until the last 200 years or so in western culture.
Adultery and Rape, still considered bad, in most "enlightened cultures" though Adultery is losing a lot of steam.


Sadism and Sadomasochism, have only really become socially acceptable, though not mainstream, in the last, couple decades really.

Again, you are commenting on different types of relationships, of which sex forms a part. Sex is not the moral issue in adultery. In fact, to be adulterous, sex doesn't even have to take place.

Concepts of morality surrounding pre-marital sex are not related to sex - they are related to the belief that women were chattel to be owned.

As for sodomy, the prohibitions surrounding that resulted from a reflection of society's larger distaste for homosexuality.

And again, you have yet to demonstrate that sex itself is a moral or immoral act. We ascribe morals to this act, as we do to a number of acts. Sex itself is not inherently moral.

Semantics.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Society has had moral connotations about sex in all those forms.

Pre-Marital was largely considered bad, for quite a long time. There's even evidence to suggest it's bad for you.
Sodomy, long time considered bad until the last 200 years or so in western culture.
Adultery and Rape, still considered bad, in most "enlightened cultures" though Adultery is losing a lot of steam.


Sadism and Sadomasochism, have only really become socially acceptable, though not mainstream, in the last, couple decades really.

What the holy hell am I reading?
No, this is all just so wrong.

Great argument.

[Cenetra]

I literally never said that the majority of rapes accusations of lying. That's what you wanted me to say.


I was responding to someones claim that anyone who's had the charges drop, more than likely got away with rape. Which is biased as hell.

"I'm not SAYING that the majority of rape accusations are false, I'm just saying that it's wrong to believe that someone who was charged, but not convicted of rape probably got away with rape!"


fucking pathetic.

All right, time for a math lesson.

Let's say 90% of all rape accusations are true (nice round number, plus close to the logarithmic mean of the 2% claim generally made by one side and the 40% claim on the other side).
Let's also say that 50% of rape accusations end with the defendant being found guilty (number pulled out of my ass because I don't want to wade through the kinds of sites that would have the actual number).
Being generous, let's say that falsely accused defendants are NEVER convicted.
By simple math, we find that that 20% of the defendants who are found not guilty were correctly found not guilty. This is what is known as a "significant minority."

If we estimate a higher false accusation rate of 1 in 3 (unlikely to be that high) and again assume no false convictions and a conviction rate of 50%, we calculate that the majority of the defendants found not guilty are in fact innocent.

Besides the fact that nobody ever claimed that the majority of accused rapists found not guilty are innocent, your implication that this is the same as saying that the majority of accused rapists are innocent is false.

[Neo Art]

"I'm not SAYING that the majority of rape accusations are false, I'm just saying that it's wrong to believe that someone who was charged, but not convicted of rape probably got away with rape!"


fucking pathetic.

All right, time for a math lesson.

Let's say 90% of all rape accusations are true (nice round number, plus close to the logarithmic mean of the 2% claim generally made by one side and the 40% claim on the other side).
Let's also say that 50% of rape accusations end with the defendant being found guilty (number pulled out of my ass because I don't want to wade through the kinds of sites that would have the actual number).
Being generous, let's say that falsely accused defendants are NEVER convicted.
By simple math, we find that that 20% of the defendants who are found not guilty were correctly found not guilty. This is what is known as a "significant minority."

If we estimate a higher false accusation rate of 1 in 3 (unlikely to be that high) and again assume no false convictions and a conviction rate of 50%, we calculate that the majority of the defendants found not guilty are in fact innocent.

Besides the fact that nobody ever claimed that the majority of accused rapists found not guilty are innocent, your implication that this is the same as saying that the majority of accused rapists are innocent is false.

....jesus fucking christ