Straight White Males as default: How it's wrong.

[Nailed to the Perch]

It's sort of amazing how someone has to come in on nearly every page of this thread to share the brilliantly original insight, "PEOPLE CAN WRITE BADLY IF THEY WANT TO AND YOU CAN'T MAKE THEM CHANGE! SO THERE!"

You wanna hear something insightful? If you don't enjoy it, don't read it! I know, I know, it's a novel approach, a new concept, but it works. Or, better yet, write your own, and you can have, as the main character, a gay, male-to-female transgender, black, atheist cripple.

Yes, thank you for repeating your super-original argument. Good job.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, amazingly, broader social trends in which straight white men are seen as the default human still exist! Gosh, it's almost like the grownups are discussing something slightly more complicated than "BUT I DON'T WAAAAANNA THINK ABOUT THINGS!"

[Forsher]

Nobody complain about mcdonalds being shitty food.
Noone needs to be told the truth about mcdonalds being awful for you.
If you don't like it, don't eat it. Or better yet, start up your own burger company.


Criticizing people for their product is a fundamental feedback necessary for capitalism and markets to exist and thrive.

Generally people complain the sort of food sold by the likes of McDonalds because it's unhealthy. They might not eat it themselves but they're doing the best they can to firstly spread the word and secondly improve the healthiness because they're concerned about the impacts on society.

Same reason why Abatael's response doesn't actually work... although, there's a degree of "I can like a story without liking all of it" going on.

[Ostroeuropa]

....are you fucking shitting me?

I don't think you could pick a worse example if you TRIED.

I'm agreeing with you that it's perfectly fine for people to tell authors to improve their product...
It's an awful example of the argument against the people saying "Well just don't buy it and shut up."

[The UK in Exile]

Nobody complain about mcdonalds being shitty food.
Noone needs to be told the truth about mcdonalds being awful for you.

....are you fucking shitting me?

I don't think you could pick a worse example if you TRIED.

I think he was being sarcastic.

[Kubrath]

Jesus Christ! And I'm an Atheist, too!

What is wrong with some people today? I'm beginning to believe the First World is running out of real problems or is starting to not give a damn about them and instead chooses to focus on non-existing ones.
If I'm getting this straight, the complaint here is that authors, the people who devise the plot and characters and utilize them to write a story, from the medieval fantasy strata are, as implied by the OP's conclusions, sexist and racist, on the basis that they do not portray Their Own Characters the way some pretentious douchebag wants them to.

One thing should be bloody clear about this - an author's characters are their own damn business and no one has an iota of a right to tell them they ought to construct them in a different manner than of their own preference. If someone does not find their author's characters appealing, then they should not read such literature and should instead turn to something of their liking. If they cannot find anything, then tough luck.

It's called literary criticism.. You see, some of these 'pretentious douchebags' think that it helps to talk about stories in order to make them better, more interesting, more fun. The way these stories handle gender, relationships etc is a major part of that.

Also, the complaint is that if an author can only write people like they are themselves, they're a pretty bad writer.

Finally, some of us pretentious douchebags like to read SFF and we'd like to see a more diverse cast of characters, or -heaven forbid- we're gay or female douchebags and we'd like to occasionally see characters that we can relate to as well.

No, that's not literary criticism, that's too much sensitivity. You're not making a story better by telling authors they're actively discriminating against a portion of the human population, you're just being a whiny primadonna.

An author doesn't possess an array of colourful main characters devised to appeal to every whiner on the planet? His writing must be terrible! What a logical deduction there, Holmes!

On your last note, read the part of my previous comment in bold.

[Distributist Chestertonia]

Tolkien's works are some of the greatest pieces of literature of all time. A lot of them are also concoctions of things he had been kicking around for years - languages, the different civilisations and mythologies, and especially religious allegory.

You don't just sit down and write about something of which you have no conception. It's not natural. Or rather, the writing will not be and therefore will not be enjoyable to read. You've got to think about what it is you're describing, what the character's mind is. It's kinda like being an actor. An actor doesn't just go up on stage and say his lines. He has to know the Script, who he is, what his purpose in his life, as a character, is, and the other characters. Acting takes practise to get right.

Same with writing. You have to familiarise with your own concepts before you can write effectively about anything.

And if you want to write effectively about a black man, or a gay man, or a wo-man, in the real world, you have to familiarise yourself with those IRL.

Wow. Good writing is hard huh? You don't fucking say.

Pretty much, yeah, Credible Hulk. Fanfic writers don't usually write well. Most do not know how to write well. What did you expect?

Most fanfic writers could not care less about doing that. They're writing about other things - usually whatever they're fanficking about.

I don't give a flying fuck about shitty fanfic wherein Princess Leia has a lesbian relationship with Sparklehoof Ponytrot or whatever the fuck their names are. Fan fic doesn't have any actual real cultural significance or sociological impact on the broad scale.

BRAVO! YOU WIN THE DOOR PRIZE! We can close this thread now! I think we accomplished a lot today!

Consistent themes throughout mass consumed media, on the other hand, do.

This is true.

I don't think we have to worry about that, though, as "the media" has slowly but surely been getting more antiChristian, pro-gay, pro-abortion, pro-choice - though I would be want to say they are more pro-woman. They would be if they treated women like they were people and not just saucy little things to throw into bras, lingerie and skimpy dresses. In fact, "the media" is very anti-woman. It is also very anti-man, because it does much the same thing to men. It turns both sexes into big horny bags of chemicals.

Not always. But a lot more than they used to.

[Esternial]

Amazingly, I can often relate to any character regardless of whatever they look like, it's more about their actions and thoughts.

Because it's still a book.

Unless yours have pictures in them.

Well, you're right. I rather meant that our existence isn't denied. How would you feel if 95% of all books everywhere were about gay black women?

Don't see how much I'd care. I can imagine them all as straight white men if I want to, and I don't care who they have sex with. As long the story is solid I'm pleased.

[Neo Art]

....are you fucking shitting me?

I don't think you could pick a worse example if you TRIED.

I'm agreeing with you that it's perfectly fine for people to tell authors to improve their product...
It's an awful example of the argument against the people saying "Well just don't buy it and shut up."

oh, that was sarcasm.

OK, good, I feel better then. Yes, actually, I see your point quite well, it's a good one.

[Forsher]

You wanna hear something insightful?

Ideally, but I'm not expecting it from you.

Technically I think the following comment is perceptive rather than insightful but, hey, what do I know? I'm not a marker for English exams.

Lord of the Flies is about the conflict between the individual want (meat) and social need (fire).

[Kubrath]

Jesus Christ! And I'm an Atheist, too!

What is wrong with some people today? I'm beginning to believe the First World is running out of real problems or is starting to not give a damn about them and instead chooses to focus on non-existing ones.
If I'm getting this straight, the complaint here is that authors, the people who devise the plot and characters and utilize them to write a story, from the medieval fantasy strata are, as implied by the OP's conclusions, sexist and racist, on the basis that they do not portray Their Own Characters the way some pretentious douchebag wants them to.

One thing should be bloody clear about this - an author's characters are their own damn business and no one has an iota of a right to tell them they ought to construct them in a different manner than of their own preference. If someone does not find their author's characters appealing, then they should not read such literature and should instead turn to something of their liking. If they cannot find anything, then tough luck.

It's sort of amazing how someone has to come in on nearly every page of this thread to share the brilliantly original insight, "PEOPLE CAN WRITE BADLY IF THEY WANT TO AND YOU CAN'T MAKE THEM CHANGE! SO THERE!"

Wow, what a retort.

[Nadkor]

....are you fucking shitting me?

I don't think you could pick a worse example if you TRIED.

I think he was being sarcastic.

That would require an understanding of sarcasm.

[Distributist Chestertonia]

It's sort of amazing how someone has to come in on nearly every page of this thread to share the brilliantly original insight, "PEOPLE CAN WRITE BADLY IF THEY WANT TO AND YOU CAN'T MAKE THEM CHANGE! SO THERE!"

Wow, what a retort.

You said "You're an idiot". I quite agreed with that.

[Nimilia]

Well, you're right. I rather meant that our existence isn't denied. How would you feel if 95% of all books everywhere were about gay black women?

Don't see how much I'd care. I can imagine them all as straight white men if I want to, and I don't care who they have sex with. As long the story is solid I'm pleased.

Yeahh I still think we'd have a thread on NS on why we see so few straight white men in literature, to be honest.. I think you might not necessarily be saying what you are saying now, either.

[Neo Art]

Wow, what a retort.

Now now summertime, let's not hide your true feelings, we saw the before the edit:

You're an idiot.

Funny you edited it out though. What, realized you shot your load a bit too quick? It's barely June

[Forsher]

....are you fucking shitting me?

I don't think you could pick a worse example if you TRIED.

I think he was being sarcastic.

Bother, I liked my reply.

This is definite proof that 5:46am is bedtime.

Hilariously I just heard, "You're sleepy now" due to listening to Hallo Spaceboy.

[The UK in Exile]

I think he was being sarcastic.

That would require an understanding of sarcasm.

hey, even a stopped clock.....

[Nailed to the Perch]

It's called literary criticism.. You see, some of these 'pretentious douchebags' think that it helps to talk about stories in order to make them better, more interesting, more fun. The way these stories handle gender, relationships etc is a major part of that.

Also, the complaint is that if an author can only write people like they are themselves, they're a pretty bad writer.

Finally, some of us pretentious douchebags like to read SFF and we'd like to see a more diverse cast of characters, or -heaven forbid- we're gay or female douchebags and we'd like to occasionally see characters that we can relate to as well.

No, that's not literary criticism, that's too much sensitivity. You're not making a story better by telling authors they're actively discriminating against a portion of the human population, you're just being a whiny primadonna.

An author doesn't possess an array of colourful main characters devised to appeal to every whiner on the planet? His writing must be terrible! What a logical deduction there, Holmes!

On your last note, read the part of my previous comment in bold.

...I'm sorry, are you somehow under the impression that "literary criticism" means "telling authors their writing is terrible"?

I mean, maybe YOU did really, really badly in your English classes, but for most of us, "criticism" wasn't so much "you're terrible" as "a thoughtful analysis of what's good, what's interesting, what could be improved, etc." If you're used to it just meaning "you're terrible," I'm pretty sure you're not cut out to write.

[Nadkor]

That would require an understanding of sarcasm.

hey, even a stopped clock.....

Perhaps.

[Meryuma]

I have this idea of a Conan-esque story about a protagonist who's neither straight, white, nor male.



You're the only one who views it in such oversimplified terms. You don't have to be a bigot to perpetuate privilege. In fact, it's often done unconsciously, which is actually a major part of the concept.

Isn't that just Xena?

I guess, except she'd also be an Arab or something.

[The Blaatschapen]

Jesus Christ! And I'm an Atheist, too!

What is wrong with some people today? I'm beginning to believe the First World is running out of real problems or is starting to not give a damn about them and instead chooses to focus on non-existing ones.
If I'm getting this straight, the complaint here is that authors, the people who devise the plot and characters and utilize them to write a story, from the medieval fantasy strata are, as implied by the OP's conclusions, sexist and racist, on the basis that they do not portray Their Own Characters the way some pretentious douchebag wants them to.

One thing should be bloody clear about this - an author's characters are their own damn business and no one has an iota of a right to tell them they ought to construct them in a different manner than of their own preference. If someone does not find their author's characters appealing, then they should not read such literature and should instead turn to something of their liking. If they cannot find anything, then tough luck.

It's called literary criticism.. You see, some of these 'pretentious douchebags' think that it helps to talk about stories in order to make them better, more interesting, more fun. The way these stories handle gender, relationships etc is a major part of that.

Also, the complaint is that if an author can only write people like they are themselves, they're a pretty bad writer.

Finally, some of us pretentious douchebags like to read SFF and we'd like to see a more diverse cast of characters, or -heaven forbid- we're gay or female douchebags and we'd like to occasionally see characters that we can relate to as well.

Literary criticism? http://xkcd.com/451/

[Kubrath]

Wow, what a retort.

Now now summertime, let's not hide your true feelings, we saw the before the edit:

You're an idiot.

Funny you edited it out though. What, realized you shot your load a bit too quick? It's barely June

Summertime? Notice the year of my nationstate and kindly shut up.

Shot the load too quick? No, I just felt that sudden impulses must be controlled and insults must be retracted.

[Zweite Alaje]

Jesus Christ! And I'm an Atheist, too!

What is wrong with some people today? I'm beginning to believe the First World is running out of real problems or is starting to not give a damn about them and instead chooses to focus on non-existing ones.
If I'm getting this straight, the complaint here is that authors, the people who devise the plot and characters and utilize them to write a story, from the medieval fantasy strata are, as implied by the OP's conclusions, sexist and racist, on the basis that they do not portray Their Own Characters the way some pretentious douchebag wants them to.

One thing should be bloody clear about this - an author's characters are their own damn business and no one has an iota of a right to tell them they ought to construct them in a different manner than of their own preference. If someone does not find their author's characters appealing, then they should not read such literature and should instead turn to something of their liking. If they cannot find anything, then tough luck.

It's called literary criticism.. You see, some of these 'pretentious douchebags' think that it helps to talk about stories in order to make them better, more interesting, more fun. The way these stories handle gender, relationships etc is a major part of that.

Also, the complaint is that if an author can only write people like they are themselves, they're a pretty bad writer.

Finally, some of us pretentious douchebags like to read SFF and we'd like to see a more diverse cast of characters, or -heaven forbid- we're gay or female douchebags and we'd like to occasionally see characters that we can relate to as well.

It's still basically people getting oversensitive over nothing. If a person wants a character they can relate to they can write their own book.

[Kubrath]

No, that's not literary criticism, that's too much sensitivity. You're not making a story better by telling authors they're actively discriminating against a portion of the human population, you're just being a whiny primadonna.

An author doesn't possess an array of colourful main characters devised to appeal to every whiner on the planet? His writing must be terrible! What a logical deduction there, Holmes!

On your last note, read the part of my previous comment in bold.

...I'm sorry, are you somehow under the impression that "literary criticism" means "telling authors their writing is terrible"?

I mean, maybe YOU did really, really badly in your English classes, but for most of us, "criticism" wasn't so much "you're terrible" as "a thoughtful analysis of what's good, what's interesting, what could be improved, etc." If you're used to it just meaning "you're terrible," I'm pretty sure you're not cut out to write.

You replied to the wrong person.

[United Dependencies]

Wow, what a retort.

Now now summertime, let's not hide your true feelings, we saw the before the edit:

You're an idiot.

Funny you edited it out though. What, realized you shot your load a bit too quick? It's barely June

For the love of God. We've got to get our forum back.

[Kubrath]

Wow, what a retort.

You said "You're an idiot". I quite agreed with that.

Insulting people is an impulse that should be controlled to an extent. But boy does it feel good.