Straight White Males as default: How it's wrong.

[Esternial]

...Are you seriously making the argument that people not thinking that women leads can sell well is sexist against men?

Your persecution complex astounds me.

No.
I'm making the argument that the marketting system has sexist results against women, but stems from stereotypes about men.
As usual, sexism effects both genders.
In this case, by telling males over and over not to watch shows that may be good (MLP:FIM being one example.) and judging them for accessing that part of culture.
And as a result of that, female leads are less common which provides sexism against females.
As usual, as soon as someone thinks gender is relevant, it immediately nosedives into sexist results.


Incidentally:

1,032,400 viewers for A Canterlot Wedding. (Season 2 finale, best results so far.)
Most censuses and such place Bronies as numbering far larger than this.
Bronies are practically guaranteed to watch the show.
Little girls are not.

Please don't turn this into another Magnostro unlimited edition gender argument^TM

[Ostroeuropa]

No.
I'm making the argument that the marketting system has sexist results against women, but stems from stereotypes about men.
As usual, sexism effects both genders.
In this case, by telling males over and over not to watch shows that may be good (MLP:FIM being one example.) and judging them for accessing that part of culture.
And as a result of that, female leads are less common which provides sexism against females.
As usual, as soon as someone thinks gender is relevant, it immediately nosedives into sexist results.


Incidentally:

1,032,400 viewers for A Canterlot Wedding. (Season 2 finale, best results so far.)
Most censuses and such place Bronies as numbering far larger than this.
Bronies are practically guaranteed to watch the show.
Little girls are not.

Well thanks for proving my point I guess?

What point and how did I prove it?
If your point is that the current set-up effects women negatively, I never argued otherwise.

[Kubrath]

-snip-

I remember when I was 14, the world seemed a lot simpler then.

I couldn't agree more

[Abatael]

Jesus Christ! And I'm an Atheist, too!

What is wrong with some people today? I'm beginning to believe the First World is running out of real problems or is starting to not give a damn about them and instead chooses to focus on non-existing ones.
If I'm getting this straight, the complaint here is that authors, the people who devise the plot and characters and utilize them to write a story, from the medieval fantasy strata are, as implied by the OP's conclusions, sexist and racist, on the basis that they do not portray Their Own Characters the way some pretentious douchebag wants them to.

One thing should be bloody clear about this - an author's characters are their own damn business and no one has an iota of a right to tell them they ought to construct them in a different manner than of their own preference. If someone does not find their author's characters appealing, then they should not read such literature and should instead turn to something of their liking. If they cannot find anything, then tough luck.

Yeah, and if you don't agree, you're a homophobic, sexist, misogynistic, racist bigot!

[The UK in Exile]

No.
I'm making the argument that the marketting system has sexist results against women, but stems from stereotypes about men.
As usual, sexism effects both genders.
In this case, by telling males over and over not to watch shows that may be good (MLP:FIM being one example.) and judging them for accessing that part of culture.
And as a result of that, female leads are less common which provides sexism against females.
As usual, as soon as someone thinks gender is relevant, it immediately nosedives into sexist results.


Incidentally:

1,032,400 viewers for A Canterlot Wedding. (Season 2 finale, best results so far.)
Most censuses and such place Bronies as numbering far larger than this.
Bronies are practically guaranteed to watch the show.
Little girls are not.

Please don't turn this into another Magnostro unlimited edition gender argument^TM

Now In 3D!

[Distributist Chestertonia]

But don't expect writers to write outside of their expertise

This is true. George R. R. Martin was a prolific dragon hunter in his day. And have you read Thomas Harris' op-ed in the New York Food Review on the best way to cook human liver? Fantastic.

Or to put it another way, of COURSE we expect writers to write outside of things they're familiar with. They're WRITERS. That's what they DO.

Tolkien's works are some of the greatest pieces of literature of all time. A lot of them are also concoctions of things he had been kicking around for years - languages, the different civilisations and mythologies, and especially religious allegory.

You don't just sit down and write about something of which you have no conception. It's not natural. Or rather, the writing will not be and therefore will not be enjoyable to read. You've got to think about what it is you're describing, what the character's mind is. It's kinda like being an actor. An actor doesn't just go up on stage and say his lines. He has to know the Script, who he is, what his purpose in his life, as a character, is, and the other characters. Acting takes practise to get right.

Same with writing. You have to familiarise with your own concepts before you can write effectively about anything.

And if you want to write effectively about a black man, or a gay man, or a wo-man, in the real world, you have to familiarise yourself with those IRL.

Most fanfic writers could not care less about doing that. They're writing about other things - usually whatever they're fanficking about. And that's fine, because it's not their job to appeal to every bloody minority in the bloody world. It's their job to write about things that are important to them. Heck, it's not even a job! It's a BLOODY HOBBY!

GET OVER IT!

[Saiwania]

So wouldn't be just as threatening to have everyone treated equally? Then you wouldn't have the special privileges you have, you would just have the same rights as everyone else.

No you see, if you have a majority Black country for example; then my expectation is that the social capital will now go to Black people. It is human nature for whichever group is in the majority to assert itself over all of the minority groups. In Japan for example, if you are non-Japanese than you are only a gaijin. You are not thought of as truly Japanese unless you are of Yamato descent and were born and raised there.

[Esternial]

Jesus Christ! And I'm an Atheist, too!

What is wrong with some people today? I'm beginning to believe the First World is running out of real problems or is starting to not give a damn about them and instead chooses to focus on non-existing ones.
If I'm getting this straight, the complaint here is that authors, the people who devise the plot and characters and utilize them to write a story, from the medieval fantasy strata are, as implied by the OP's conclusions, sexist and racist, on the basis that they do not portray Their Own Characters the way some pretentious douchebag wants them to.

One thing should be bloody clear about this - an author's characters are their own damn business and no one has an iota of a right to tell them they ought to construct them in a different manner than of their own preference. If someone does not find their author's characters appealing, then they should not read such literature and should instead turn to something of their liking. If they cannot find anything, then tough luck.

I remember when I was 14, the world seemed a lot simpler then.

Probably because you weren't on NS back then.

I think.

Did it even exist back then?

[Nailed to the Perch]

Jesus Christ! And I'm an Atheist, too!

What is wrong with some people today? I'm beginning to believe the First World is running out of real problems or is starting to not give a damn about them and instead chooses to focus on non-existing ones.
If I'm getting this straight, the complaint here is that authors, the people who devise the plot and characters and utilize them to write a story, from the medieval fantasy strata are, as implied by the OP's conclusions, sexist and racist, on the basis that they do not portray Their Own Characters the way some pretentious douchebag wants them to.

One thing should be bloody clear about this - an author's characters are their own damn business and no one has an iota of a right to tell them they ought to construct them in a different manner than of their own preference. If someone does not find their author's characters appealing, then they should not read such literature and should instead turn to something of their liking. If they cannot find anything, then tough luck.

It's sort of amazing how someone has to come in on nearly every page of this thread to share the brilliantly original insight, "PEOPLE CAN WRITE BADLY IF THEY WANT TO AND YOU CAN'T MAKE THEM CHANGE! SO THERE!"

[Nimilia]

Jesus Christ! And I'm an Atheist, too!

What is wrong with some people today? I'm beginning to believe the First World is running out of real problems or is starting to not give a damn about them and instead chooses to focus on non-existing ones.
If I'm getting this straight, the complaint here is that authors, the people who devise the plot and characters and utilize them to write a story, from the medieval fantasy strata are, as implied by the OP's conclusions, sexist and racist, on the basis that they do not portray Their Own Characters the way some pretentious douchebag wants them to.

One thing should be bloody clear about this - an author's characters are their own damn business and no one has an iota of a right to tell them they ought to construct them in a different manner than of their own preference. If someone does not find their author's characters appealing, then they should not read such literature and should instead turn to something of their liking. If they cannot find anything, then tough luck.

It's called literary criticism.. You see, some of these 'pretentious douchebags' think that it helps to talk about stories in order to make them better, more interesting, more fun. The way these stories handle gender, relationships etc is a major part of that.

Also, the complaint is that if an author can only write people like they are themselves, they're a pretty bad writer.

Finally, some of us pretentious douchebags like to read SFF and we'd like to see a more diverse cast of characters, or -heaven forbid- we're gay or female douchebags and we'd like to occasionally see characters that we can relate to as well.

[Neo Art]

This is true. George R. R. Martin was a prolific dragon hunter in his day. And have you read Thomas Harris' op-ed in the New York Food Review on the best way to cook human liver? Fantastic.

Or to put it another way, of COURSE we expect writers to write outside of things they're familiar with. They're WRITERS. That's what they DO.

Tolkien's works are some of the greatest pieces of literature of all time. A lot of them are also concoctions of things he had been kicking around for years - languages, the different civilisations and mythologies, and especially religious allegory.

You don't just sit down and write about something of which you have no conception. It's not natural. Or rather, the writing will not be and therefore will not be enjoyable to read. You've got to think about what it is you're describing, what the character's mind is. It's kinda like being an actor. An actor doesn't just go up on stage and say his lines. He has to know the Script, who he is, what his purpose in his life, as a character, is, and the other characters. Acting takes practise to get right.

Same with writing. You have to familiarise with your own concepts before you can write effectively about anything.

And if you want to write effectively about a black man, or a gay man, or a wo-man, in the real world, you have to familiarise yourself with those IRL.

Wow. Good writing is hard huh? You don't fucking say.

Most fanfic writers could not care less about doing that. They're writing about other things - usually whatever they're fanficking about.

I don't give a flying fuck about shitty fanfic wherein Princess Leia has a lesbian relationship with Sparklehoof Ponytrot or whatever the fuck their names are. Fan fic doesn't have any actual real cultural significance or sociological impact on the broad scale.

Consistent themes throughout mass consumed media, on the other hand, do.

[Abatael]

Jesus Christ! And I'm an Atheist, too!

What is wrong with some people today? I'm beginning to believe the First World is running out of real problems or is starting to not give a damn about them and instead chooses to focus on non-existing ones.
If I'm getting this straight, the complaint here is that authors, the people who devise the plot and characters and utilize them to write a story, from the medieval fantasy strata are, as implied by the OP's conclusions, sexist and racist, on the basis that they do not portray Their Own Characters the way some pretentious douchebag wants them to.

One thing should be bloody clear about this - an author's characters are their own damn business and no one has an iota of a right to tell them they ought to construct them in a different manner than of their own preference. If someone does not find their author's characters appealing, then they should not read such literature and should instead turn to something of their liking. If they cannot find anything, then tough luck.

It's sort of amazing how someone has to come in on nearly every page of this thread to share the brilliantly original insight, "PEOPLE CAN WRITE BADLY IF THEY WANT TO AND YOU CAN'T MAKE THEM CHANGE! SO THERE!"

You wanna hear something insightful? If you don't enjoy it, don't read it! I know, I know, it's a novel approach, a new concept, but it works. Or, better yet, write your own, and you can have, as the main character, a gay, male-to-female transgender, black, atheist cripple.

[Esternial]

Jesus Christ! And I'm an Atheist, too!

What is wrong with some people today? I'm beginning to believe the First World is running out of real problems or is starting to not give a damn about them and instead chooses to focus on non-existing ones.
If I'm getting this straight, the complaint here is that authors, the people who devise the plot and characters and utilize them to write a story, from the medieval fantasy strata are, as implied by the OP's conclusions, sexist and racist, on the basis that they do not portray Their Own Characters the way some pretentious douchebag wants them to.

One thing should be bloody clear about this - an author's characters are their own damn business and no one has an iota of a right to tell them they ought to construct them in a different manner than of their own preference. If someone does not find their author's characters appealing, then they should not read such literature and should instead turn to something of their liking. If they cannot find anything, then tough luck.

It's called literary criticism.. You see, some of these 'pretentious douchebags' think that it helps to talk about stories in order to make them better, more interesting, more fun. The way these stories handle gender, relationships etc is a major part of that.

Also, the complaint is that if an author can only write people like they are themselves, they're a pretty bad writer.

Finally, some of us pretentious douchebags like to read SFF and we'd like to see a more diverse cast of characters, or -heaven forbid- we're gay or female douchebags and we'd like to occasionally see characters that we can relate to as well.

Amazingly, I can often relate to any character regardless of whatever they look like, it's more about their actions and thoughts.

Because it's still a book.

Unless yours have pictures in them.

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't give a flying fuck about shitty fanfic wherein Princess Leia has a lesbian relationship with Sparklehoof Ponytrot or whatever the fuck their names are. Fan fic doesn't have any actual real cultural significance or sociological impact on the broad scale.

lesbian relationship with Sparklehoof Ponytrot or whatever the fuck their names are.

Sparklehoof Ponytrot

... *adds to list of names for OC's*

[Neo Art]

Jesus Christ! And I'm an Atheist, too!

What is wrong with some people today? I'm beginning to believe the First World is running out of real problems or is starting to not give a damn about them and instead chooses to focus on non-existing ones.
If I'm getting this straight, the complaint here is that authors, the people who devise the plot and characters and utilize them to write a story, from the medieval fantasy strata are, as implied by the OP's conclusions, sexist and racist, on the basis that they do not portray Their Own Characters the way some pretentious douchebag wants them to.

One thing should be bloody clear about this - an author's characters are their own damn business and no one has an iota of a right to tell them they ought to construct them in a different manner than of their own preference. If someone does not find their author's characters appealing, then they should not read such literature and should instead turn to something of their liking. If they cannot find anything, then tough luck.

It's sort of amazing how someone has to come in on nearly every page of this thread to share the brilliantly original insight, "PEOPLE CAN WRITE BADLY IF THEY WANT TO AND YOU CAN'T MAKE THEM CHANGE! SO THERE!"

I know right, I mean, what kind of person thinks that, 30 pages later, worthless, sophomoric shit like this is actually going to contribute to the conversation?

Summertime here actually thought this precisions little "YOU CAN'T MAKE ME!" was an original, clever, and worthwhile thing to say. Fucking hell, and people call me egotistical.

[Distributist Chestertonia]

So wouldn't be just as threatening to have everyone treated equally? Then you wouldn't have the special privileges you have, you would just have the same rights as everyone else.

No you see, if you have a majority Black country for example; then my expectation is that the social capital will now go to Black people. It is human nature for whichever group is in the majority to assert itself over all of the minority groups. In Japan for example, if you are non-Japanese than you are only a gaijin. You are not thought of as truly Japanese unless you are of Yamato descent and were born and raised there.

And more power to 'em.

And in Ancient Israel, if you were a memser - a child born of incest - you couldn't marry except with other memsers.

And more power to 'em.

[Neo Art]

You wanna hear something insightful?

From the resident forum Nazi? I doubt it

If you don't enjoy it, don't read it! I know, I know, it's a novel approach, a new concept, but it works. Or, better yet, write your own, and you can have, as the main character, a gay, male-to-female transgender, black, atheist cripple.

I was right.

[Esternial]

You wanna hear something insightful?

From the resident forum Nazi? I doubt it

If you don't enjoy it, don't read it! I know, I know, it's a novel approach, a new concept, but it works. Or, better yet, write your own, and you can have, as the main character, a gay, male-to-female transgender, black, atheist cripple.

I was right.

Most of us don't enjoy debating with some people here.

Yet here we are.

[Ostroeuropa]

Nobody complain about mcdonalds being shitty food.
Noone needs to be told the truth about mcdonalds being awful for you.
If you don't like it, don't eat it. Or better yet, start up your own burger company.


Criticizing people for their product is a fundamental feedback necessary for capitalism and markets to exist and thrive.
Most companies actually do give a shit about if they can improve their product.
Because if they do it, it means someone else gets headed off at the pass and isn't able to.

[Meryuma]

It is a problem and it is wrong but I don't think it's the writers faults for doing this. A writer writes what he wants and what he knows about, that has been the rule since the dawn of fiction.

If anything, this should show some up and coming writers of the Sci-fi or Fantasy genre that you should try and have your characters be more diverse and different then the norm.

Seriously! Try making a story were the heroine is not only African but also a Commander of a fleet of warships in space or Have a Gay man become a emperor of a empire in a fantasy world. That would be interesting and very awesome to see!

I have this idea of a Conan-esque story about a protagonist who's neither straight, white, nor male.

Jesus Christ! And I'm an Atheist, too!

What is wrong with some people today? I'm beginning to believe the First World is running out of real problems or is starting to not give a damn about them and instead chooses to focus on non-existing ones.
If I'm getting this straight, the complaint here is that authors, the people who devise the plot and characters and utilize them to write a story, from the medieval fantasy strata are, as implied by the OP's conclusions, sexist and racist, on the basis that they do not portray Their Own Characters the way some pretentious douchebag wants them to.

One thing should be bloody clear about this - an author's characters are their own damn business and no one has an iota of a right to tell them they ought to construct them in a different manner than of their own preference. If someone does not find their author's characters appealing, then they should not read such literature and should instead turn to something of their liking. If they cannot find anything, then tough luck.

Yeah, and if you don't agree, you're a homophobic, sexist, misogynistic, racist bigot!

You're the only one who views it in such oversimplified terms. You don't have to be a bigot to perpetuate privilege. In fact, it's often done unconsciously, which is actually a major part of the concept.

[Esternial]

Nobody complain about mcdonalds being shitty food.
Noone needs to be told the truth about mcdonalds being awful for you.
If you don't like it, don't eat it. Or better yet, start up your own burger company.


Criticizing people for their product is a fundamental feedback necessary for capitalism and markets to exist and thrive.

So if you don't like a book...don't read it a second time?

Sounds pretty obvious, don't ya think?

[Nadkor]

You wanna hear something insightful?

Ideally, but I'm not expecting it from you.

[Ostroeuropa]

It is a problem and it is wrong but I don't think it's the writers faults for doing this. A writer writes what he wants and what he knows about, that has been the rule since the dawn of fiction.

If anything, this should show some up and coming writers of the Sci-fi or Fantasy genre that you should try and have your characters be more diverse and different then the norm.

Seriously! Try making a story were the heroine is not only African but also a Commander of a fleet of warships in space or Have a Gay man become a emperor of a empire in a fantasy world. That would be interesting and very awesome to see!

I have this idea of a Conan-esque story about a protagonist who's neither straight, white, nor male.

Yeah, and if you don't agree, you're a homophobic, sexist, misogynistic, racist bigot!

You're the only one who views it in such oversimplified terms. You don't have to be a bigot to perpetuate privilege. In fact, it's often done unconsciously, which is actually a major part of the concept.

Isn't that just Xena?

[Neo Art]

Nobody complain about mcdonalds being shitty food.
Noone needs to be told the truth about mcdonalds being awful for you.

....are you fucking shitting me?

I don't think you could pick a worse example if you TRIED.

[Nimilia]

It's called literary criticism.. You see, some of these 'pretentious douchebags' think that it helps to talk about stories in order to make them better, more interesting, more fun. The way these stories handle gender, relationships etc is a major part of that.

Also, the complaint is that if an author can only write people like they are themselves, they're a pretty bad writer.

Finally, some of us pretentious douchebags like to read SFF and we'd like to see a more diverse cast of characters, or -heaven forbid- we're gay or female douchebags and we'd like to occasionally see characters that we can relate to as well.

Amazingly, I can often relate to any character regardless of whatever they look like, it's more about their actions and thoughts.

Because it's still a book.

Unless yours have pictures in them.

Well, you're right. I rather meant that our existence isn't denied. How would you feel if 95% of all books everywhere were about gay black women?