Straight White Males as default: How it's wrong.

[Ostroeuropa]

If you read her previous post on the subject it's pretty clear she doesn't think it's perfectly fine.

It's pretty clear that she thinks that a show changing from targeting one demographic to suit another demographic that's watching it would be a bad thing (which is the consistent point she makes), it's not even implied that she doesn't think men should be watching MLP and she states outright that men and boys watching it is perfectly fine.

She's not saying that men and boys shouldn't watch MLP if that's what they want to watch - she's saying that she doesn't want to see MLP change to cater to that demographic because it's already providing an important function for the demographic it was originally targeted at.

This is really very easy to see if you can actually read.

I can say it's perfectly fine to have niggers living next door to me, but I don't think the neighborhood should change.
It wouldn't negate what i'd just said to have the words perfectly fine in there.

Are you so comically bad at finding racism that you fall for "I'm not racist but?"

What the fuck even is this? I know that you're the the king of really shit analogies, but you've managed to outdo yourself with this one.

Considering there is absolutely no danger of that happening, it really does reveal a level of sexism.
She also implied it was already or had already happened simply because they were watching it.
"making it all about them."

[Ostroeuropa]

So you mean you don't like the shows targetted at your demographic and watch other ones?
Why do you have to make those shows all about you?! /whine

What the fuck?

Nevermind that this is in no way analogous and that you're arguing some bullshit strawman, there's a huge fucking difference from me saying that most of television is not targeted at my demographic when most of them aren't and you (who is part of the target audience for 90% of what's on television) complaining that some show that you enjoy is not targeted at your demographic like almost everything else on television.

Clearly, having 90% of all the stuff isn't enough.

I'm not complaining it isn't targeted at my demographic.
Are you saying you aren't placed in the demographic for 90% of television? Got any proof?
Because the way I see it, male leads are marketted to both genders. You're in that demographic.
Female leads are marketted to females.
If you want to see more female leads, start marketting female leads to the entire population.

[Purpelia]

Dude, if women weren't "allowed" to enjoy television shows targeted at men, then we'd never be allowed to watch television outside of soap operas, some reality shows and whatever the local network for women is called.

So you mean you don't like the shows targetted at your demographic and watch other ones?
Why do you have to make those shows all about you?! /whine

His point was that the guys that make the show get the right to chose who they want to appeal to. And these are the chosen people who are supposed to like it and whose desires, dreams and ideas you cater to. If people outside of this group want to watch and enjoy the show that's not a problem. It's their life after all.

But (and this is the key part) at the same time anyone who falls outside of the chosen demographic has no right to complain about the show not being up to his standards. The show is after all not supposed to be for him. It was not made for people like him. The designers did not even take his existence into account when making it. And this is (once more, a key part) their right as artists and through the universal declaration of human rights human beings.

You can't please everyone. So you pick your chosen demographic and please them and them alone. If someone else likes it too that's just a free bonus.

[Shaggai]

I have never read his short Children's books or Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics I should have said "I have read almost all of his Middle Earth Mythology".
But really if you see Frodo and Sam as gay then that's your choice (even though Sam loves Rosie Cottons but whatever) I am of the opinion that Tolkien did not mean for you to see the characters in that way but if that's your interpretation then each to his own I guess.

There's a healthy amount of debate about it around the internet. People have pointed out the greek epics were a large source of inspiration for Tolkien, and they often included male couples (ex. the Iliad with Achilles and Patrocles)..

I'm personally not sure what Tolkien intended.. There's very little open romance in LOTR, but there does appear to be a lot of pairing of two guys, and most of the actual described hugging and kissing is actually done by them, rather than the guy/girl pairings!
There's Merry and Pippin, Frodo and Sam, Legolas and Gimli as main character couplings, with Boromir and Gandalf alone and Aragorn with Arwen who only shows up like twice.. Gimli and Legolas first fight, then become best friends and after the war they travel the world together (and meet eachother's parents), have romantic trips into caves and finally go on a ship to Valinor together..
Now I'm not saying they're gay, but that's pretty gay!

Seriously though, if someone wrote that story now, we'd assume they were hinting at those characters being a couple.. But back then I really don't know. People were aware of sexuality existing, for sure.

See, the most credible theory in my opinion is: Tolkien was seriously into friendship. He served in the army during WWI; when you have to trust people with your life, you most likely become serious friends with your friends. Tolkien apparently did. In other words: The characters are Heterosexual Life Partners

[Nadkor]

It's pretty clear that she thinks that a show changing from targeting one demographic to suit another demographic that's watching it would be a bad thing (which is the consistent point she makes), it's not even implied that she doesn't think men should be watching MLP and she states outright that men and boys watching it is perfectly fine.

She's not saying that men and boys shouldn't watch MLP if that's what they want to watch - she's saying that she doesn't want to see MLP change to cater to that demographic because it's already providing an important function for the demographic it was originally targeted at.

This is really very easy to see if you can actually read.



What the fuck even is this? I know that you're the the king of really shit analogies, but you've managed to outdo yourself with this one.

Considering there is absolutely no danger of that happening, it really does reveal a level of sexism.
She also implied it was already or had already happened simply because they were watching it.
"making it all about them."

No.

[Forsher]

Not the cleverest thing to do on my part but I got distracted by chased by a giant cat story.

So, let's look at our knight running the Kingdom in the service of the Dairy Queen. We put our personality into the knight and then move on from there. He's got our personality so what happens if he's attacked by a dragon? I know, run away because I'm a wimp. Or, perhaps run away with a sarcastic remark and maybe some comment about a strawman because our personality has put us on NSG. In fact, it's probably the Radfem Paulbot Abortion Jesus Legalise Drugs Dragon, from the Malvinas with a bach in a Scotland and a taste for foreign black economy wrecking Presidents, to boot.

The thing is they just end up being white because we've unconsciously put ourselves into them because, what I'm about to quote below is what happens..

Essentially. You're always incorporating some aspect of yourself.

It just seeps in. Although, to be honest, I rather hope I'm not an unscrupulous doctor at heart.

I don't think you understand. "Write what you know" is only a way to get someone started. Is this dude a knight? Does he live in a realm populated by magic and elves? Does he run a kingdom? For that matter, do any of us run a kingdom? Because we seem to be perfectly willing to fill that role on this sight despite not even being in charge of the local Dairy Queen.

We're willing to make jumps to imagine what it would be like to be a knight or a king or a voyager in a realm with elves and dragons and unicorn, but holy shit...have a protagonist that isn't a pale dude...fuck, you're asking too much.

SFF and fantasy, by its very definition, is not anyone's 'experience.' And seriously, having your main character be a darker shade of pale isn't going to get someone calling you out saying "You don't know what it's like to be black in America" because the character isn't black in America, they're dark skinned in "Doesn'texistia" (fuck...now I think of a name...).

Mark Twain never traveled to King Arthur's court, Edgar Rice Burroughs was never raised by apes, Rudyard Kipling had never even been to India. When you write, you make shit up. Yeah, when you're learning your way, you write a lot of stories that seem a lot like your own life (or what you wish your own life was like). I did it, my first few plays had middle class slacker white kids in the lead because I was learning story and pacing. But if I was still hindered by that restriction now, I should be looking into a trade that doesn't require as much imagination.

I feel like this is another one of those kinds of things where people come in to 'defend men' and end up saying we're all rapists at heart and I want to scream "STOP HELPING!" I've written about alchoholics, scientists, architects, even knights and demons (I actually forgot that one, totally wrote a fantasy short screenplay for someone...I guess I do write SFF), spies, all kinds of shit I'm not because I'm not Ernest fucking Hemingway and I'm not out fighting WWI and running with the bulls. Fiction writers write fiction. Made up shit. That line doesn't stop at "Oh no, a character that has a different skin ton or sexual preference is just too far"...that's fucking ridiculous.

Rudyard Kipling was born in india.

I really should read Kim, it's sitting on my shelf, but I understand that it is semi-autobiographical. Seems not, but apparently he wrote his father into the book...

I'm happy that you would concede so easily.

Italy is in europe. the renaissance overlaps with the medieval period.

Generally speaking Southern Europe doesn't get a look in fantasy except as a nice foreign place. The British Isles and Germanic influences are much stronger.

Norman England didn't have dragons. What's your point?

This is the thing that I just don't get - people are perfectly willing to have dragons and magic and all the other clichéd fantasy shit of the day, but the very notion that there might be someone with vaguely dark skin is an outrage.

I just don't see how you can make that argument and not feel just incredibly cheap.

It depends how "the real world, but with dragons!" it is.

It'd be easier to explain but I don't read enough of these things and even if I did there's the aforementioned point that unless skin colour matters in some way or other it's quite simply not described.

Forsher's latest story. If you value your eyesight and intelligence, do not click on the spoiler.

Once upon a time, a dwarf lived with his sister, an elf, in a house that was born of a dragon mated with a gryphon at four o'clock on a sunny Wednesday afternoon sometime in the year after the events of this story concluded. The dwarf had a very happy life but he was constantly in and out of hospital due to a severe shortage of vitamin D brought about by his jet black skin and a total absence of calcium in his diet. His sister didn't have this problem because, in addition to be an elf, she was also a zombie.

"Mr Dwarf, we've decided to recommend a radical treatment option. Have you ever considered becoming a vampire? Their intense sensisitivity to light will be counter-acted by your inherent immunity to it, O Incredibly Black One."

"Sounds good to me."

"Thank you your Inkiness. We're glad this is the case because we already went ahead with the appropriate transfusion."

"You Bastard."

"No, that was a camel."

The Dwarf went on to have a happy-ish life, punctuated, at regular intervals, by a stake. In fact, I heard he's proposed to a fellow vampire by the name of Santa Claus.

The better way to make my point would be to find a well written story that does what I said it would instead of my, frankly, hilarious (I write this stuff for me, not you) non-serious story. (When I say the dwarf is black, I mean black as in black paint, shoe polish, ink... actually black, not human skin tone black. This is a fantasy story.)

I never said that it was a direct allegory.

And I agree, they can. I'm merely suggesting that the reason why writers would include a white lord of a land based on northern England, rather than a black person for the sake of including a black person.

Sure they could.

"This is the Black Baron Whatsisface of Bornholm. He was born in the Summer Isles, and was a mercenary all his life, and rescued the life of King Boris the Bald in battle. For his valliant efforts he was give the barony and a special helmet."

See you don't even to change any of the old tropes. It's the magic of fiction, especially one set in a world that's not our own.

It's incredibly realistic as well. To be honest, if a African gentlemen brought fifty knights on horseback to William, Duke of Normandy, he'd have been baron in no time at all... for the simple fact that promises of land were basically what allowed William to have an army (plus, you know, the Papal blessing... Rome was never England's friend...).

I've been thinking about this, and the problem is that a writer can only write about what they know. Sure, they can add in fantasy beasts and what have you, but the realistic parts - relationships, general life etc - have to be written with some sort of experience.

How much experience do you think Philip Pullman has of being a teenage girl?

He doesn't write in first person, the amateur. (Although, technically, Lyra's a pre-teen. Yes he writes other stuff, no I haven't read it. And that really only applies at the start so it's pointless nitpicking.)

John Marsden is where this is taken to the logical extreme.

Although, to connect with a later post, he's also a teacher. It reminded me of a line from a story I put in the now demised short story contest of on A&F.

The other Jessica’s felt as if Lala was written by an author who does know what he’s on about, as much as any bloke can, but was just too familiar with convention and how those conventions are applied in real life to actually capture the female teenager that Lala clearly represented, accurately.

Um, I should point out that I went to considerable pains to point out when characters were Asian, Polynesian or what have you but that was because, well, read the story and you'll see why it's different.

You must have read a different Harry Potter from the one I read...
Harry Potter is FILLED with an anti-racism, anti-bigotry message.. What do you think the whole 'muggles' thing is about ANYWAY?

The wizards in Harry potter are pretty much uniformly racist. there are some that want to purge the muggles and some that want to paternally protect them, if you though Dumbledore's character was Anti-racist I've got some bad news for you... The closest it got was "mud bloods" who were really wizards any way. They at least got a say in the system.

It comes down, more or less, to muggle-borns and the oppression thereof. There's that fountain thing with the muggles and Hermione thinks that's horrible... but she was also the genius behind SPEW so... Goblins (under this interpretation) are clearly there to remind people that history is generally a story of everyone being nasty to everyone else. Wait, actually, I think the relevant line was more "Yeah, well, we wizards were bastards too" so it's more typical.

Muggles don't really matter, they're really rather more concerned about those members who are part of their secret culture. And, hey, they're not in hiding because they think it's fun.

Also consider the furor over Dumbledore's sexuality and the whole situation between Snape and Harry's parents.

That's because Dumbledore's sexuality basically came down to, "Oh, yeah, I forgot to make any real reference to this in the books but Dumbledore's gay." I've read theories (a theory at any rate) that she meant to make him, er, gayer but me opposition on the publisher's end.

I'm pretty sure that as a normal human being, I could easily write a character with more melanin in his skin. In a suitable setting, such as a certain part of my high fantasy world with a substantial population of them, it would be pretty simple and come naturally.

Then again, I just realized I never seem to actually specify a character's skin color in actual writing. Possibly because it makes no difference.

You never describe how your characters look?

Harry gazed longingly into Matilda's warm brown eyes, brushed her warm brown hair aside and then spewed up on account of her warm brown skin.

^ Tends not to happen. Even when the writer is taking the piss to a greater or lesser extent than myself just then.

I'm a Straight White Male and I want to see more Straight Asian Females

Don't we all?

Read Runaways.

There is one straight Asian Female character (Japanese American). Comes with illustrations on account of being a graphic novel. You know she's straight because her first boyfriend was an evil villain (aren't they all? but I know this one was evil... because he was black!1!1) and the next one was a hispanic robot (well, android/cyborg, stuff spoilers... son of Ultron). Also, she rejected the confused advances of her lesbian alien friend.

Out of interest, does Hispanic get a capital H? I don't know.

Except this isn't about how much of the author's personalities leak into characters but rather normative assumptions made about lead characters in SFF.

That's become debatable given that this started off as "write what you know," remember?

If you're making up the world, you're making up their experiences to. Quit pussing out.

I'm not sure who you think you're talking to at this point because, below, you committed the Cardian Sin and confused to vaguely superficial names. This quote: Forster Keys, Australian, at university.

That's why Mogli is a little white guy, right? Or Rikki Tikki Tavi for that matter. You're twisting yourself in pretzels in order to say that while we can imagine all kinds of different shit, imagining a protagonist that isn't the author is the step too far. That would make for a shitty role-player, never mind author.

This quote: Forsher, Not Australian, not at university.

Kipling was an Anglo-Indian (ish). Mowgli? Just plain old Indian, as far as I can tell.

What I am saying is that elements of ourselves get put into our stories. So, when we don't specify a skin colour or anything we kind of look at it and (if we think of it at all, which I maintain is unlikely unless prompted... look at Neo Art's story that he was telling us about, without any plot details... grr; to clarify, what I am saying is that he didn't notice the point he's telling us about until prompted) we find that we've got a lot of white characters. I'm pretty certain that an author who isn't a white person (and particularly one who isn't in what I am going to label, in full knowledge of the terms dodginess, the white world) is going to find that a lot of their stories have non-specified (i.e. the defaults) who aren't white (let alone SWMs).

I am also saying that we're going to write ourselves in somehow. We're going to find a character and just subconsciously start writing our personality into them. Unless we're doing that deliberately.

"It's a show targeted at girls"
"Yeah, but men like it"
"That's perfectly fine, but the target audience shouldn't change"

=

OMG MISANDRY MEN SHOULDN'T WATCH SHOWS AIMED AT WOMEN

?

I mean, it's not even close. TSM explicitly states that she thinks that men watching and enjoying is "perfectly fine".

Are you really this comically bad at reading in real life or is something you do just for us?

If you read her previous post on the subject it's pretty clear she doesn't think it's perfectly fine.
I can say it's perfectly fine to have niggers living next door to me, but I don't think the neighborhood should change.
It wouldn't negate what i'd just said to have the words perfectly fine in there.

Are you so comically bad at finding racism that you fall for "I'm not racist but?"

Ah yes, men taking a children's TV show meant for girls and making it all about them.

Great example.

It's a reasonably valid critique of Bronyism. Some bronies deny the existence of a target audience.

[Ostroeuropa]

It's a reasonably valid critique of Bronyism. Some bronies deny the existence of a target audience.

Denying reality doesn't make the show about them any more than a girl denying transformers was aimed at boys would make it so.

[Saiwania]

I agree that White people being the default main characters is wrong if a story is set in the present tense, but only because White people are demographically declining towards extinction.

Everyday I see more and more Spanish language advertising alongside English and I'm quite alarmed by the changes going on to my country/community. My fear is that eventually there won't be a single White majority country that speaks English in 50 or so years, which will mean that I will be stuck as a minority.

[The Blaatschapen]

I agree that White people being the default main characters is wrong if a story is set in the present tense, but only because White people are demographically declining towards extinction.

Everyday I see more and more Spanish language advertising alongside English and I'm quite alarmed by the changes going on to my country/community. My fear is that eventually there won't be a single White majority country that speaks English in 50 or so years, which will mean that I will be stuck as a minority.

Why is it a fear?

[Southern Patriots]

I agree that White people being the default main characters is wrong if a story is set in the present tense, but only because White people are demographically declining towards extinction.

Everyday I see more and more Spanish language advertising alongside English and I'm quite alarmed by the changes going on to my country/community. My fear is that eventually there won't be a single White majority country that speaks English in 50 or so years, which will mean that I will be stuck as a minority.

Think of it as an opportunity.

You'll be able to complain about the majority over dumb non-issues like this with impunity.

[Ethel mermania]

so the answer is "yes".

awesome.

they're not even close to the same.

i get you dont see they are, but they are.

to claim he should have done otherwise is to implying he is racist in his storytelling

The author used the context of the war of the roses as his background. you know
lannisters = lancasters
starks = yorks
there were no mutombo's in the north.

He does not have to write one in too appease political correctness.

[Forsher]

It's a reasonably valid critique of Bronyism. Some bronies deny the existence of a target audience.

Denying reality doesn't make the show about them any more than a girl denying transformers was aimed at boys would make it so.

In other words, you've fundamentally just said:

Ah yes, men taking a children's TV show meant for girls and making it all about them.

Great example.

Probably, I should go to bed. I swear it was only 2am when I started reading this thread again. It's half past four now.

[Ostroeuropa]

Denying reality doesn't make the show about them any more than a girl denying transformers was aimed at boys would make it so.

In other words, you've fundamentally just said:

Ah yes, men taking a children's TV show meant for girls and making it all about them.

Great example.

Probably, I should go to bed. I swear it was only 2am when I started reading this thread again. It's half past four now.

I havn't said that. I've said the opposite.
If I claim the illiad is all about me, it doesn't make it so.

Probably bed is a good idea.

[Forsher]

I agree that White people being the default main characters is wrong if a story is set in the present tense, but only because White people are demographically declining towards extinction.

Everyday I see more and more Spanish language advertising alongside English and I'm quite alarmed by the changes going on to my country/community. My fear is that eventually there won't be a single White majority country that speaks English in 50 or so years, which will mean that I will be stuck as a minority.

Unlikely. I am pretty sure someone dissected the Spanish speaking States of America idea once on here and concluded it is unlikely. Anyway, Australia, New Zealand and the UK are in no danger of ceasing to speak English in fifty years. Remaining white majority... perhaps but that doesn't matter, like, at all.

[Nimilia]

they're not even close to the same.

i get you dont see they are, but they are.

to claim he should have done otherwise is to implying he is racist in his storytelling

The author used the context of the war of the roses as his background. you know
lannisters = lancasters
starks = yorks
there were no mutombo's in the north.

He does not have to write one in too appease political correctness.

Which helpfully isn't what anyone was saying, so you can keep your straw man to yourself.

[Dakini]

What the fuck?

Nevermind that this is in no way analogous and that you're arguing some bullshit strawman, there's a huge fucking difference from me saying that most of television is not targeted at my demographic when most of them aren't and you (who is part of the target audience for 90% of what's on television) complaining that some show that you enjoy is not targeted at your demographic like almost everything else on television.

Clearly, having 90% of all the stuff isn't enough.

I'm not complaining it isn't targeted at my demographic.
Are you saying you aren't placed in the demographic for 90% of television? Got any proof?

Nah, I pulled the number out of my ass, but for children's television shows, female characters exist in a little more than 30% of them and women have less than 30% of all speaking roles in movies.

Because the way I see it, male leads are marketted to both genders. You're in that demographic.
Female leads are marketted to females.
If you want to see more female leads, start marketting female leads to the entire population.

I don't know if you've been paying any attention at all, but a lot of people are trying to do this. The problem is that Hollywood is really conservative and they don't believe that men are interested in stories about women (or that white people are interested in stories about black people... unless Will Smith is involved). The problem is that "straight white male" is the default that everyone is supposed to relate to, but that's totally fucking bullshit.

I'm beginning to think you have issues reading.

[Ethel mermania]

i get you dont see they are, but they are.

to claim he should have done otherwise is to implying he is racist in his storytelling

The author used the context of the war of the roses as his background. you know
lannisters = lancasters
starks = yorks
there were no mutombo's in the north.

He does not have to write one in too appease political correctness.

Which helpfully isn't what anyone was saying, so you can keep your straw man to yourself.

not the way i am reading this thread. it is exactly to the point.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm not complaining it isn't targeted at my demographic.
Are you saying you aren't placed in the demographic for 90% of television? Got any proof?

Nah, I pulled the number out of my ass, but for children's television shows, female characters exist in a little more than 30% of them and women have less than 30% of all speaking roles in movies.

Because the way I see it, male leads are marketted to both genders. You're in that demographic.
Female leads are marketted to females.
If you want to see more female leads, start marketting female leads to the entire population.

I don't know if you've been paying any attention at all, but a lot of people are trying to do this. The problem is that Hollywood is really conservative and they don't believe that men are interested in stories about women (or that white people are interested in stories about black people... unless Will Smith is involved). The problem is that "straight white male" is the default that everyone is supposed to relate to, but that's totally fucking bullshit.

I'm beginning to think you have issues reading.

That's...that's the fucking point.
Thats why I find TSM's statement appalling.

[Dakini]

I agree that White people being the default main characters is wrong if a story is set in the present tense, but only because White people are demographically declining towards extinction.

Which is bullshit spread by fearmongering racists.

Everyday I see more and more Spanish language advertising alongside English and I'm quite alarmed by the changes going on to my country/community. My fear is that eventually there won't be a single White majority country that speaks English in 50 or so years, which will mean that I will be stuck as a minority.

Oh, poor you. Why does this idea trouble you? Do you think that you'll get treated as poorly as minorities are currently treated?

[Nadkor]

I'm beginning to think you have issues reading.

Beginning?

[Dakini]

Nah, I pulled the number out of my ass, but for children's television shows, female characters exist in a little more than 30% of them and women have less than 30% of all speaking roles in movies.


I don't know if you've been paying any attention at all, but a lot of people are trying to do this. The problem is that Hollywood is really conservative and they don't believe that men are interested in stories about women (or that white people are interested in stories about black people... unless Will Smith is involved). The problem is that "straight white male" is the default that everyone is supposed to relate to, but that's totally fucking bullshit.

I'm beginning to think you have issues reading.

That's...that's the fucking point.
Thats why I find TSM's statement appalling.

...because you don't even understand what she's saying? Or apparently the point of this thread?

I'm sorry, maybe you're not bad at reading, maybe you're just really bad at explaining what you mean and coming out as confrontational with people who essentially agree with you (if that is the point you're making).

[The UK in Exile]

they're not even close to the same.

i get you dont see they are, but they are.

to claim he should have done otherwise is to implying he is racist in his storytelling

The author used the context of the war of the roses as his background. you know
lannisters = lancasters
starks = yorks
there were no mutombo's in the north.

He does not have to write one in too appease political correctness.

but he can if he wants too, which might be why he does add a rich variety of races, religions and oh, yeah Dragons.

the point is that G R R Martin didn't actually go "well its the War of the Roses so..... Whites only." which might be why the Lannister/Stark story line is only a small part of a gigantic fantasy world.

because I don't actually remember the bit in the War of the Roses where Elaneor of Aquitane married the khan of the Golden Hordes and sacked North Africa.

because if you'd actually read what we'd been talking about, the point wasn't that game of thrones is racist, but that

a historical setting is not nessecarily a justification for having only straight white men as characters and it makes even less sense to claim that historical context is important when the story is about a fantasy world with dragons.

Game of Thrones is a good example of a fantasy novel that has a diverse cast.

[Purpelia]

Oh, poor you. Why does this idea trouble you? Do you think that you'll get treated as poorly as minorities are currently treated?

Shouldn't it? The prospect of being treated badly should be a relatively scary thing to any sane individual.

[Ostroeuropa]

That's...that's the fucking point.
Thats why I find TSM's statement appalling.

...because you don't even understand what she's saying? Or apparently the point of this thread?

I'm sorry, maybe you're not bad at reading, maybe you're just really bad at explaining what you mean and coming out as confrontational with people who essentially agree with you (if that is the point you're making).

"Making it all about them." by watching a show not targetted at them and making it a gender neutral demographic Is a bad thing.
VS
We need to make all the demographics gender neutral.

[Dakini]

Which helpfully isn't what anyone was saying, so you can keep your straw man to yourself.

not the way i am reading this thread. it is exactly to the point.

That's a pity because it isn't and that's not what anybody has been saying.