What is the gender of nationstates

[Linux and the X]

The notion that genitalia is connected to sexuality is stupid. Her post said this, and I objected. The notion that there are "stages to womanhood", and one is more or less of a woman depending on how far along you are is also stupid, and I objected.

There's different stages to identification, progress and acceptance. For a man to put on a skirt and hop into a woman's changeroom is a little different from therapy, identification, mental transformation, physical transformation, and acceptance....

But hey... you're clearly an expert on this

[Algonquin Ascendancy]

What's an asexual?

You mean like a plant?

You're kidding right?

I mean, all qualms about human sexuality aside, I am literally choking on plant sex right now.

Come on... Who doesn't enjoy a little wood now and then?

[Morturaria]

Female to Male Transgender and Gay. Am I in the minority or what here?

[Dumb Ideologies]

Female to Male Transgender and Gay. Am I in the minority or what here?

FTMs don't exist!

*attacks with erasers*

[Algonquin Ascendancy]

Female to Male Transgender and Gay. Am I in the minority or what here?

Possibly...

[The Steel Magnolia]

There's different stages to identification, progress and acceptance. For a man to put on a skirt and hop into a woman's changeroom is a little different from therapy, identification, mental transformation, physical transformation, and acceptance....

But hey... you're clearly an expert on this

God I need to save that.

[Frisivisia]

God I need to save that.

It's even got the colors on your flag. How nice.

[The Steel Magnolia]

God I need to save that.

It's even got the colors on your flag. How nice.

Oh my god I didn't even notice that.

It's like, perfect for... everything. HAs the colours of the trans pride flag.

I'm in love.

[Aalnordhavn]

God I need to save that.

I think you both need a course in gender and gender identity. Learning to accept different routes people identify with a gender and not some warped version of "black and white" you seem to have in your mind is needed. No: a vagina doesn't make someone more or less of a woman. What it does, for some (and different from others, you prude), is give a sense of belonging for those that see gender as sex and sex alone.

[The Steel Magnolia]

God I need to save that.

I think you both need a course in gender and gender identity. Learning to accept different routes people identify with a gender and not some warped version of "black and white" you seem to have in your mind is needed. No: a vagina doesn't make someone more or less of a woman. What it does, for some (and different from others, you prude), is give a sense of belonging for those that see gender as sex and sex alone.

...

I'm a trans woman.

Good fucking christ. Hell, I've even explicitly stated that I understand the principle behind it, I even said that it's something I've felt. The part, the only part I objected to was the determination of sexuality (and thus gender) on genitalia, and the "stages of womanhood" thing.

[Algonquin Ascendancy]

I think you both need a course in gender and gender identity. Learning to accept different routes people identify with a gender and not some warped version of "black and white" you seem to have in your mind is needed. No: a vagina doesn't make someone more or less of a woman. What it does, for some (and different from others, you prude), is give a sense of belonging for those that see gender as sex and sex alone.

...

I'm a trans woman.

Good fucking christ. Hell, I've even explicitly stated that I understand the principle behind it, I even said that it's something I've felt. The part, the only part I objected to was the determination of sexuality (and thus gender) on genitalia, and the "stages of womanhood" thing.

Silly TSM... Why can't you just sit down and listen to the all-knowing cis-men?

[Aalnordhavn]

I think you both need a course in gender and gender identity. Learning to accept different routes people identify with a gender and not some warped version of "black and white" you seem to have in your mind is needed. No: a vagina doesn't make someone more or less of a woman. What it does, for some (and different from others, you prude), is give a sense of belonging for those that see gender as sex and sex alone.

...

I'm a trans woman.

Good fucking christ. Hell, I've even explicitly stated that I understand the principle behind it, I even said that it's something I've felt. The part, the only part I objected to was the determination of sexuality (and thus gender) on genitalia, and the "stages of womanhood" thing.

I'd like you to sit back and think for a second... (edited for potential flaming reporting)

As a trans woman (in italics to please you) you... of all people... should be accepting of any alternative someone has towards how they identify.

Not if they have a penis.

Not if they have a vagina.

Not if whatever gender they associate themselves with... orientation they choose to identify with... this that or the other.

I would expect someone like you to have COMPASSION towards someone who can feel comfortable in their own skin. Someone who has likely borne the brunt of hatred, insults, and everything that comes with being transgendered and leading up to a genital transformation. I've come to expect more from someone who maybe has experienced the same slings from family/friends/society that Obrenovacia has faced.

The fact that someone considered themselves straight... After who knows what hardship? And can post it on a fucking FORUM without fear of persecution and hatred. Yet YOU of all people choose to jump on that and try to blow it up? Oh I'm sorry, but you need to take a step back hun.

[The Steel Magnolia]

...

I'm a trans woman.

Good fucking christ. Hell, I've even explicitly stated that I understand the principle behind it, I even said that it's something I've felt. The part, the only part I objected to was the determination of sexuality (and thus gender) on genitalia, and the "stages of womanhood" thing.

I'd like you to sit back and think for a second... (edited for potential flaming reporting)

As a trans woman (in italics to please you) you... of all people... should be accepting of any alternative someone has towards how they identify.

Not if they have a penis.

Not if they have a vagina.

Not if whatever gender they associate themselves with... orientation they choose to identify with... this that or the other.

I would expect someone like you to have COMPASSION towards someone who can feel comfortable in their own skin. Someone who has likely borne the brunt of hatred, insults, and everything that comes with being transgendered and leading up to a genital transformation. I've come to expect more from someone who maybe has experienced the same slings from family/friends/society that Obrenovacia has faced.

The fact that someone considered themselves straight... After who knows what hardship? And can post it on a fucking FORUM without fear of persecution and hatred. Yet YOU of all people choose to jump on that and try to blow it up? Oh I'm sorry, but you need to take a step back hun.

...Did you seriously get the notion that I'm rejecting someone's identity out of that post?

Seriously? You think I'm bitching about her sexuality?

I'm not, not at all. I am bitching, like I have repeatedly said, at the notion that genitalia is a determination of gender or sexuality. That notion is false, no matter who believes it. Transgender, queer, agender entirely. It doesn't fucking matter who you are, and actually as a fellow trans woman, I'd have expected Obrenovacia to know better.

Genitalia is entirely distinct from identity. I'm sure having the "proper" genitals would make most trans people a lot more comfortable. It certainly would for me.

It doesn't mean, however, that they are only their gender after SRS.

[Algonquin Ascendancy]

...

I'm a trans woman.

Good fucking christ. Hell, I've even explicitly stated that I understand the principle behind it, I even said that it's something I've felt. The part, the only part I objected to was the determination of sexuality (and thus gender) on genitalia, and the "stages of womanhood" thing.

I'd like you to sit back and think for a second... (edited for potential flaming reporting)

As a trans woman (in italics to please you) you... of all people... should be accepting of any alternative someone has towards how they identify.

Not if they have a penis.

Not if they have a vagina.

Not if whatever gender they associate themselves with... orientation they choose to identify with... this that or the other.

I would expect someone like you to have COMPASSION towards someone who can feel comfortable in their own skin. Someone who has likely borne the brunt of hatred, insults, and everything that comes with being transgendered and leading up to a genital transformation. I've come to expect more from someone who maybe has experienced the same slings from family/friends/society that Obrenovacia has faced.

The fact that someone considered themselves straight... After who knows what hardship? And can post it on a fucking FORUM without fear of persecution and hatred. Yet YOU of all people choose to jump on that and try to blow it up? Oh I'm sorry, but you need to take a step back hun.

You haven't actually read a single fucking thing she's said, have you?

[Linux and the X]

I think you both need a course in gender and gender identity.

Oh, right, I forgot, lived experience is nothing next to that ENTIRE SEMESTER you took! Wait, no, that's not right at all. Once again,

[Aalnordhavn]

Let's break it down..

...Did you seriously get the notion that I'm rejecting someone's identity out of that post?

Has the undertones of such, so yes.

Seriously? You think I'm bitching about her sexuality?

That's kinda what you've been doing singling out someone for a single post on here.

I'm not, not at all. I am bitching, like I have repeatedly said, at the notion that genitalia is a determination of gender or sexuality. That notion is false, no matter who believes it. Transgender, queer, agender entirely. It doesn't fucking matter who you are, and actually as a fellow trans woman, I'd have expected Obrenovacia to know better.

Could it have been worded better? Sure! Should you have blown it up way beyond what it should've and has now become? No way in hell. The fact that you're going well off the handle to isolate someone different from you is way too fucking hypocritical to take seriously.

Genitalia is entirely distinct from identity. I'm sure having the "proper" genitals would make most trans people a lot more comfortable. It certainly would for me.

It doesn't mean, however, that they are only their gender after SRS.

These people that choose to identify, whatever makes them comfortable, after SRS is fine by me. I see a girl in a changeroom without any banter and I assume she's a girl. I don't know how she identifies, where she is emotionally or physically... so I have no place to judge. But what I see and perceive upon first glance is what I know.

Say I see a post-op M to F transgender in a changeroom. I see a vagina, don't second guess their origins or where they came from.. how they identify... I simply move on without second guessing. There is no back story to less than 2 seconds of looking, there's just a glance. What I can tell you is there is no way that if I saw a pre-op M to F transgendered person in a changeroom that I would identify their gender (female) with their sex (male), as one is distinct from the other.

I don't see how genitalia WOULDN'T help someone's identity if it means not having shame amongst other people they're trying to identify with.

[Filthy Ginger Bastards]

Bisexual male. Androgyny is neat-o.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Let's break it down..

Fuck it, yes, let's. I've been itching to get my hands dirty.

Has the undertones of such, so yes.

you're reading things into it.

That's kinda what you've been doing singling out someone for a single post on here.

Could it have been worded better? Sure! Should you have blown it up way beyond what it should've and has now become? No way in hell. The fact that you're going well off the handle to isolate someone different from you is way too fucking hypocritical to take seriously.

You should go back a few pages. To, y'know, where I explicitly said that it was a minor point and a minor piece of contention.

moreover, this really isn't me going off the handle. I ain't even mad, bro.

These people that choose to identify, whatever makes them comfortable, after SRS is fine by me.

That's their prerogative. For everyone else, gender is determined by identity, and nothing else.

I see a girl in a changeroom without any banter and I assume she's a girl. I don't know how she identifies, where she is emotionally or physically... so I have no place to judge. But what I see and perceive upon first glance is what I know.

Given cis people are in the majority it's a reasonable assumption. Always nice to ask though.

Say I see a post-op M to F transgender in a changeroom. I see a vagina, don't second guess their origins or where they came from.. how they identify... I simply move on without second guessing. There is no back story to less than 2 seconds of looking, there's just a glance. What I can tell you is there is no way that if I saw a pre-op M to F transgendered person in a changeroom that I would identify their gender (female) with their sex (male), as one is distinct from the other.

...and? I'm not seeing the relevance here.

I don't see how genitalia WOULDN'T help someone's identity if it means not having shame amongst other people they're trying to identify with.

I'm sure it would. It's a fantastic cure for dysphoria, it's a wonderful thing for those who want it and who can get it. I'm someone who wants it to.

None of which counters the point I'm making.

[Aalnordhavn]

You haven't actually read a single fucking thing she's said, have you?

"I'm a transgendered woman" is not a beat-all, end-all argument. Nor does it make attacking someone right.

Oh, right, I forgot, lived experience is nothing next to that ENTIRE SEMESTER you took! Wait, no, that's not right at all. Once again,
(Image)

Do you mind refraining from posting that image? Seriously. That doesn't legitimize whatever argument you're trying to make.

[Page]

Okay, can I just intervene here and say that the word "transgendered" is, if not offensive to some trans* people, at the very least is a grammatical abortion. It is not a past tense. Being trans* isn't a process, it's an identity. It's not something that is "done." A person can be transgender, they can't be "transgendered." Gah.

[The Steel Magnolia]

You haven't actually read a single fucking thing she's said, have you?

"I'm a transgendered woman" is not a beat-all, end-all argument. Nor does it make attacking someone right.

...

It is when you're arguing about how to define oneself as a woman.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Okay, can I just intervene here and say that the word "transgendered" is, if not offensive to some trans* people, at the very least is a grammatical abortion. It is not a past tense. Being trans* isn't a process, it's an identity. It's not something that is "done." A person can be transgender, they can't be "transgendered." Gah.

Oh that was the least of the issues .

I'm not bugged too much by it, but lord knows it's annoying as hell. Same with "transgenderism", etc.

[Aalnordhavn]

None of which counters the point I'm making.

What the fuck is your point then?

I have a vagina so I feel more female than I did before.

That's doesn't make you more of a woman than me.

I'm more comfortable having gone through SRS than those who haven't.

You're not a woman, nor am I because I haven't gone through with SRS. Everyone who has a differing opinion is wrong, because I haven't identified with that yet.

The only point I'm taking from this is that you're clearly uncomfortable with someone different from you, even though you both fit in the "T" part of LGBT and are willing to admit it. You should be united in a cause for equality, not divided by who identifies as what. Poorly worded by Obrenovacia? Sure. Get over it.

[The Steel Magnolia]

The point is, and has always been, that it's idiotic and offensive to determine gender based off of genitalia, which is what Obrenovacia did.

Also dunno what the fuck you quoted but it's certainly nothing I've said. SRS has nothing to do with womanhood.

And please. Don't try and lecture me on who I should and who i should not ally myself with.

[Linux and the X]

Do you mind refraining from posting that image? Seriously. That doesn't legitimize whatever argument you're trying to make.

Pssst.... it is the argument I'm making! You, AFAIK a cis person, are arguing against a trans woman about what it means to be a trans woman. This makes you inherently wrong, so