So, Abortion.

[Allbeama]

A man has broken into my house.
It is a very harsh winter outside.
I maintain the right to throw him out if I so choose, regardless of how close spring is.

Personally I maintain the right to properly slaughter it and braise it.

Why let good meat go to waste, after all?

[Atollus]

how can you say that? How can you be okay with killing something of the same species but not something lower than us?

Nothing is lower than us or higher than us.

Fixed.

There is nothing on this planet of equal value to a living human.

[Olthar]

Killing a rat or deer is more morally objectionable than killing a fetus because at least they have the capacity to feel pain.

how can you say that? How can you be okay with killing something of the same species but not something lower than us?

I never said that I thought killing rats and deer were wrong, just that it's more morally objectionable. Also, they are not "lower" than us. That is merely human arrogance talking. We are not inherently superior to any other species despite our cognizance.

[Frisivisia]

And that's why the current War on Drugs has been so successful, right?

How many people do you know that have crack or heroine?

It's like you want everyone to look at you and say, "Hey, that guy's a total dick!"

No, actually I don't. I don't real care if you think I'm a dick or not, I'm simply speaking my piece.

And you're making a dick out of yourself.

[Asuiop]

Try going up to a man living in poverty with a gun and try to shoot him. Notice he runs away? Notice how he wants to live?

He was already a person with feelings, sentience, etc. Fetuses are potential persons, and they cannot make choices. Is it not better to save that child from future suffering now?

Nope, Even if I was in a slum living with an extremeky low wage, I wouldn't want you to go back in time and end my life before I could think to stop you.

[Planeia]

Death is better than living in poverty?

Oftentimes, yes. A life of suffering can certainly be worse than no life at all.

Hey, here's a better idea. Why don't we legalize suicide and let the fetus grow up to decide the validity of that them self?

[Desperate Measures]

Death is better than living in poverty?

Have you ever tried living in the slums, or in poverty? It pretty much fucking sucks balls. You're running the risk of malnutrition, you don't get regular meals, you're living in an unsafe environment where crime is rampant. Etc.

I'd imagine taking care of a pregnancy when you are in poverty isn't exactly fun. Isn't this all besides the point, though? The mother has the right to her body. All these what-if games are tiring.

[Auralia]

You'll have to clarify that statement for me.

It makes end-of-life care decisions and the circumstances surrounding brain dead patients very hard to work with, for instance.

Not really. A terminal patient is a human being, so any end-of-life care decision must respect their right to life. Brain dead patients are not human beings (as they have suffered an irreversible end to all brain activity) so they do not have a right to life.

[Frisivisia]

Nothing is lower than us or higher than us.

Fixed.

There is nothing on this planet of equal value to a living human.

Maybe to us. There is no inherent value in anything.

[Christo et Ecclesiae]

how can you say that? How can you be okay with killing something of the same species but not something lower than us?

Nothing is lower than us or higher than us.

ummmmm.. That's another debate for another day.

[Auralia]

Have you ever tried living in the slums, or in poverty? It pretty much fucking sucks balls. You're running the risk of malnutrition, you don't get regular meals, you're living in an unsafe environment where crime is rampant. Etc.

I'd imagine taking care of a pregnancy when you are in poverty isn't exactly fun. Isn't this all besides the point, though? The mother has the right to her body. All these what-if games are tiring.

A mother does not have the right to kill her child.

[Avenio]

You don't have to be religious to be pro-life. It is possible to argue the case on purely secular grounds.

I was moreso commenting on the tendency of people who base their pro-life beliefs in religious arguments to solely rely upon secular arguments when debating, and indeed, actively avoid mentioning the basis for what they actually believe.

Sperm do not have an inherent capacity for sapience. They can never become sapient in the course of their development, because they are not human beings. At fertilization, the sperm ceases to exist.

The sperm doesn't 'cease to exist' at fertilization, it merges with the egg. Maternal and paternal gene products (ie components of the sperm and egg's cytoplasm) are incredibly important in directing the development of the zygote.

[United Marxist Nations]

Who says aborting living humans is so bad? I maintain the right to turn humans into Philosopher's Stones

Not serious, Fullmetal Alchemist reference.

[Olthar]

And that's why the current War on Drugs has been so successful, right?

How many people do you know that have crack or heroine?

About 8.9% of American citizens.

[Christo et Ecclesiae]

Nothing is lower than us or higher than us.

Fixed.

There is nothing on this planet of equal value to a living human.

^ this

[Zweite Alaje]

Death is better than living in poverty?

Oftentimes, yes. A life of suffering can certainly be worse than no life at all.

She wanted an abortion, right? If she dies from it, it's her and the hack job doctor's fault.

Or it's the fault of the people who wouldn't let her get a safe, regulated abortion.

"Safe and regulated" abortions something which only matters to choicers.

[Frisivisia]

Oftentimes, yes. A life of suffering can certainly be worse than no life at all.

Hey, here's a better idea. Why don't we legalize suicide and let the fetus grow up to decide the validity of that them self?

Suicide is legal.

[Individuality-ness]

He was already a person with feelings, sentience, etc. Fetuses are potential persons, and they cannot make choices. Is it not better to save that child from future suffering now?

Nope, Even if I was in a slum living with an extremeky low wage, I wouldn't want you to go back in time and end my life before I could think to stop you.

Why the fuck would I want to do that? That's just stupid. Also, you have something to live for, a fetus doesn't.

Have you ever tried living in the slums, or in poverty? It pretty much fucking sucks balls. You're running the risk of malnutrition, you don't get regular meals, you're living in an unsafe environment where crime is rampant. Etc.

I'd imagine taking care of a pregnancy when you are in poverty isn't exactly fun. Isn't this all besides the point, though? The mother has the right to her body. All these what-if games are tiring.

It is, but I was pointing out that a good number of people who get abortions are those in poverty, and they'd be extremely hard hit if abortion were to be illegal, as these women would be most likely to seek unsafe routes.

[United Marxist Nations]

He was already a person with feelings, sentience, etc. Fetuses are potential persons, and they cannot make choices. Is it not better to save that child from future suffering now?

Nope, Even if I was in a slum living with an extremeky low wage, I wouldn't want you to go back in time and end my life before I could think to stop you.

But if she went back in time, you would be unable to object, as you would never had existed; thus making it impossible to have gone back in time to abort you; by extension, stopping her from being able to abort you.

[Christo et Ecclesiae]

Fixed.

There is nothing on this planet of equal value to a living human.

Maybe to us. There is no inherent value in anything.

is a gnat of equal value to you to your own kin?

[Frisivisia]

Nothing is lower than us or higher than us.

ummmmm.. That's another debate for another day.

Spoiler Alert: God's not real, nothing has meaning or purpose, and that's great.

[Mavorpen]

Hey, here's a better idea. Why don't we legalize suicide and let the fetus grow up to decide the validity of that them self?

Suicide is legal.

You gotta admit, it's funny seeing these people basically admit that they've never reached the 21st century

[Asuiop]

Nope, Even if I was in a slum living with an extremeky low wage, I wouldn't want you to go back in time and end my life before I could think to stop you.

Why the fuck would I want to do that? That's just stupid. Also, you have something to live for, a fetus doesn't..

Actualky, the fetus has its whole life ahead of it to live for, it just doesn't know it yet.

[Desperate Measures]

I'd imagine taking care of a pregnancy when you are in poverty isn't exactly fun. Isn't this all besides the point, though? The mother has the right to her body. All these what-if games are tiring.

A mother does not have the right to kill her child.

Sure she does. It is using her body. If you were sucking on my kneecap, I'd have every right to remove you by any means possible from my kneecap. That is my kneecap. Stop sucking on it. Now.

[Olthar]

Oftentimes, yes. A life of suffering can certainly be worse than no life at all.


Or it's the fault of the people who wouldn't let her get a safe, regulated abortion.

"Safe and regulated" abortions something which only matters to choicers.

No, it matters to every woman and every man who has women he cares for.