So, Abortion.

[Northern Dominus]

If humans had ass that turned bright red just like apes, then it might be ludicrous to claim ignorance, but humans have a concealed ovulation cycle that is hard to match perfectly. Women often have slightly irregular cycles.

Not only that: there's no 100% guaranteed birth control method except for hysterectomy or ectomy of ovaries (for females) or castration (for males).

Condoms break or slip. Not often but it can happen.
A mere diarrhea can prevent birth control pills from being digested.

You know the second they figure out that yearly prophylactic injection that was mentioned in Star Trek: DS9, SOMEBODY is going to make out like a bandit and render that entire 100% argument almost moot.
Granted the quiverfull assholes probably will rail against it but by that point they'll probably be relegated to inbreeding amongst themselves.

Hmm... maybe I could move my basement gym into the garage to make way for it...

Nah, they already know I work at the aquarium. The older one already implored me to "never ever get another job cause mine is so cool"

Might have to just settle for installing mood lighting in the master bedroom/bathroom suite.

pole dancing in non-stripping context is completely legit form of exercise. *nods*

Uh huh. It's a stripper pole going into my home. There better be some sexytime happening on it or it's getting bent into modern art.

[Algonquin Ascendancy]

pole dancing in non-stripping context is completely legit form of exercise. *nods*

Uh huh. It's a stripper pole going into my home. There better be some sexytime happening on it or it's getting bent into modern art.

Sounds like a plan to me...

[Northern Dominus]

Uh huh. It's a stripper pole going into my home. There better be some sexytime happening on it or it's getting bent into modern art.

Sounds like a plan to me...

Yus! Now all I'll need is a list of songs you'll be dancing to... and to make phone calls and put the word out...

[Wind in the Willows]

Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others!

LOL.

[AiliailiA]

Skipping 80 pages and going to my own most recent thoughts on the subject.

"Woman's choice until the third trimester" was a good rule thirty or forty years ago. Very few babies delivered before that time survived. So eviction of the fetus corresponded quite closely with death of the fetus.

Now a 24 week premature birth has good chances of survival. Serious disability is still quite likely, and with or without such resultant disability premature birth is very expensive. But there are medical means to terminate a late term pregnancy without killing the fetus/pre-term, and this changes the terms of abortion. Between the right of the woman to evict from her body, and the right of a viable fetus to remain alive, is a span of time from 24 to 30 weeks in which the fetus could be removed ("born"), given over into someone else's care, and survive to grow into personhood.

It has become practical to prematurely deliver babies, throughout the third trimester and even earlier in pregnancy. However, there is still a high likelihood of disability in the baby so delivered, and huge monetary costs in neonatal care.

As I see it, the State should not defend the rights of viable fetuses to be born against the will of the woman bearing that fetus, unless the State also takes on full responsibility for the born child. In the case of an extreme neo-nate, a fetus 24-30 weeks, this means very expensive medical care and quite likely life-long expenses in disability support. It's all very well to say it is the responsibility of the woman (or of her partner in making the pregnancy) but if they can't pay then they won't pay. If the State requires the delivery of such neo-nates then the State must be prepared to pay whatever costs follow, to give the delivered baby a fair chance in life.

It's a lot of money. Neo-natal support has gotten cheaper, and could get cheaper still with greater numbers. But it won't ever be cheap, and someone has to pay the doctors and the nurses and the technology providers. I find it hard to reckon any way that human lives are improved overall, by spending hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayer money at the start of life for one individual, just to get them to the 'starting line' of full term babies. Then quite likely, needing to pay more in disability support, possibly throughout life. That money would be better spent on early childhood nutrition, on new parent support, and on disability support, for all the other children born without legal compulsion.

Yeah, so. Legal defense of those fetal lives doesn't mean a damn thing unless we're also prepared to pay the costs. If we're not prepared to pay, then all we acheive is to criminalize some people and prolong some fetal or neo-nate lives by a few days or weeks.

[Xsyne]

If you build it they will come.

The only problem is I babysit my cousin's kids on a regular basis and I'd have to explain why there's a fire pole in my house that doesn't go anywhere...

Make it go somewhere then.

[Sungai Pusat]

For anyone that is pro-choice...

At what point does the elimination of a fetus/baby become murder? Why at that particular point?

I wouldn't argue that at any particular point, the elimination of the fetus becomes murder. I would say that a woman should be allowed to have an abortion at any point after conception and before birth, though of course there should be caution against abortion after the 25th week due to the reason you mentioned about pain.

Just to have some shred of sanity, however, I will probably figure that making it legal until the third trimester is the way to go.

And, just in general, NSG, why do you have the opinion that you have on abortion?

For me, it is quite utilitarian, mostly due to having read 'Freakanomics'. Comparing what the child would have to go through in the mother's womb as they are being aborted as compared to the life the child might have while he/she is growing up, I honestly think that if the mother feels insecure about having a baby, she should abort him/her.

[Arkinesia]

Well yeah, I could do that, but I like having things like that for secular reasons.

Y'know, I wonder if we could come up with our own constitutional amendment or at least a presidential order stating that anyone who puts forth a personhood amendment or any other decidedly non-constitutional legislation is an enemy of the state and subject to deportation. Hell, let's be nice about it and send them to their own fellow religious nuts over in Uganda, they should feel right at home there.

Y'know, personhood is a pretty hotly-debated issue in the philosophy world. It's not just them stinkin' Christians who believe that personhood begins before birth, either.

[Algonquin Ascendancy]

Skipping 80 pages and going to my own most recent thoughts on the subject.

"Woman's choice until the third trimester" was a good rule thirty or forty years ago. Very few babies delivered before that time survived. So eviction of the fetus corresponded quite closely with death of the fetus.

Now a 24 week premature birth has good chances of survival. Serious disability is still quite likely, and with or without such resultant disability premature birth is very expensive. But there are medical means to terminate a late term pregnancy without killing the fetus/pre-term, and this changes the terms of abortion. Between the right of the woman to evict from her body, and the right of a viable fetus to remain alive, is a span of time from 24 to 30 weeks in which the fetus could be removed ("born"), given over into someone else's care, and survive to grow into personhood.

It has become practical to prematurely deliver babies, throughout the third trimester and even earlier in pregnancy. However, there is still a high likelihood of disability in the baby so delivered, and huge monetary costs in neonatal care.

As I see it, the State should not defend the rights of viable fetuses to be born against the will of the woman bearing that fetus, unless the State also takes on full responsibility for the born child. In the case of an extreme neo-nate, a fetus 24-30 weeks, this means very expensive medical care and quite likely life-long expenses in disability support. It's all very well to say it is the responsibility of the woman (or of her partner in making the pregnancy) but if they can't pay then they won't pay. If the State requires the delivery of such neo-nates then the State must be prepared to pay whatever costs follow, to give the delivered baby a fair chance in life.

It's a lot of money. Neo-natal support has gotten cheaper, and could get cheaper still with greater numbers. But it won't ever be cheap, and someone has to pay the doctors and the nurses and the technology providers. I find it hard to reckon any way that human lives are improved overall, by spending hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayer money at the start of life for one individual, just to get them to the 'starting line' of full term babies. Then quite likely, needing to pay more in disability support, possibly throughout life. That money would be better spent on early childhood nutrition, on new parent support, and on disability support, for all the other children born without legal compulsion.

Yeah, so. Legal defense of those fetal lives doesn't mean a damn thing unless we're also prepared to pay the costs. If we're not prepared to pay, then all we acheive is to criminalize some people and prolong some fetal or neo-nate lives by a few days or weeks.

Women aren't incubators, so you can shove your restrictions.

[Xsyne]

I always hear "It's my body" and "don't violate my body" yet I can't help but wonder why so many women are unaware of their biological functions. If we are going to demand ownership of our bodies, we need to take ownership instead of this ludicrous "I didn't know I was fertile because I don't understand how my body works, and it's HIS fault too because he should know I'm fertile" attitude.

*sigh*

Clearly every woman has a cycle that runs like clockwork and is never thrown off by excessive stress, illness or whatever else. In addition, clearly every woman who gets pregnant did so by not using some form (or multiple forms) of contraception correctly. Clearly, those women who get pregnant despite taking the best precautions possible to their knowledge are fuckups who do not get to decide what should continue to happen in their bodies.

Oh, and clearly all sperm die immediately if no egg is present. They never stick around for up to days at a time.

[Swith Witherward]

I always hear "It's my body" and "don't violate my body" yet I can't help but wonder why so many women are unaware of their biological functions. If we are going to demand ownership of our bodies, we need to take ownership instead of this ludicrous "I didn't know I was fertile because I don't understand how my body works, and it's HIS fault too because he should know I'm fertile" attitude.

If humans had ass that turned bright red just like apes, then it might be ludicrous to claim ignorance, but humans have a concealed ovulation cycle that is hard to match perfectly. Women often have slightly irregular cycles. Ask women athletes. Why do you think a catholic medical doctor was the first one to invent a hormonal contraceptive? The rhythm method wasn't working well enough for many of the catholics he had known, so he decided to find a way to prevent pregnancy in the first place.

It doesn't take much for a "biologically savvy" woman to prevent pregnancy. It does take willpower, intelligence and being in tune with your body. We also know that "going bareback" is just asking for trouble (with more worry over an STD than over a pregnancy) regardless of whether or not we use other contraceptive methods. As women, it's our responsibility to safeguard ourselves.

Willpower, intelligence, and being in tune with your body is all you need to prevent pregnancy? Well, what a discovery! Do you teach sex education to kids based on that? do you support abstinence-only sex ed programs?

Willpower is essential for self-mastery. Intelligence allows one to make rational decisions. Being in tune with your body allows you to better understand it. These three things are vital to women's health. They won't prevent pregnancy... They will further empower the woman.

Had you bothered to glance at my CDC link, you might have noticed that the majority of unintended pregnancies occur in teens and low income. My stance remains and falls in line with the medical community's: awareness and contraceptives decrease the chance of unintended pregnancy. This is why agencies such as Planned Parenthood are vital.

What I personally advocate (besides patient education and BCP/the shot) is protection. A pregnancy can be aborted but an STD can affect a woman for life.

[Redmurk]

Well if they didn't want the damn thing they should have thought of that in the first place so I say BAN ABORTION.

[Grad Duchy of Luxembourg]

If humans had ass that turned bright red just like apes, then it might be ludicrous to claim ignorance, but humans have a concealed ovulation cycle that is hard to match perfectly. Women often have slightly irregular cycles. Ask women athletes. Why do you think a catholic medical doctor was the first one to invent a hormonal contraceptive? The rhythm method wasn't working well enough for many of the catholics he had known, so he decided to find a way to prevent pregnancy in the first place.




Willpower, intelligence, and being in tune with your body is all you need to prevent pregnancy? Well, what a discovery! Do you teach sex education to kids based on that? do you support abstinence-only sex ed programs?

Willpower is essential for self-mastery. Intelligence allows one to make rational decisions. Being in tune with your body allows you to better understand it. These three things are vital to women's health. They won't prevent pregnancy... They will further empower the woman.

Had you bothered to glance at my CDC link, you might have noticed that the majority of unintended pregnancies occur in teens and low income. My stance remains and falls in line with the medical community's: awareness and contraceptives decrease the chance of unintended pregnancy. This is why agencies such as Planned Parenthood are vital.

What I personally advocate (besides patient education and BCP/the shot) is protection. A pregnancy can be aborted but an STD can affect a woman for life.

Just wanted to make sure you weren't taking the blame-the-victim stance by evoking biologically savvy women.

[Swith Witherward]

*sigh*

Clearly every woman has a cycle that runs like clockwork and is never thrown off by excessive stress, illness or whatever else. In addition, clearly every woman who gets pregnant did so by not using some form (or multiple forms) of contraception correctly. Clearly, those women who get pregnant despite taking the best precautions possible to their knowledge are fuckups who do not get to decide what should continue to happen in their bodies.

Oh, and clearly all sperm die immediately if no egg is present. They never stick around for up to days at a time.

See my response above. There was a reason why the info I provided regarding general biology and contraceptives was spoilered. Many young girls are unaware of the very basics.

It's up to them to teamwork with their health care provider to decide the method that works best for them. We all have our unique quirks. I'm a runner and so my cycle is different than the norm ergo my doctor and I decided that the shot might work better than the pill.

[Grad Duchy of Luxembourg]

Well if they didn't want the damn thing they should have thought of that in the first place so I say BAN ABORTION.

I think we should start by preventing you from ever even slightly coercing a woman into having sex with you. And since we can only be sure you won't have sex is to actually remove the penis, I think we should remove your penis to prevent women who don't want to get pregnant from ever being coerced into sleeping with you.

[Nationalist State of Knox]

Well if they didn't want the damn thing they should have thought of that in the first place so I say BAN ABORTION.

You're under the strange delusion that abortion is only desired in a single circumstance.

How cute.

[Swith Witherward]

Just wanted to make sure you weren't taking the blame-the-victim stance by evoking biologically savvy women.

I don't see anyone as being a victim.

That said, an educated patient who disregards knowledge, preventative measures and all forms of contraception just because "It feels good so I had to have it right now" - ie he forgot his condoms at home - and then blames society and the man for her moment of indiscretion ("because if I get pregnant, he can pay for an abortion") scores really low on my respect-o-meter. This is why I said willpower was important.

[Emmadog]

Well if they didn't want the damn thing they should have thought of that in the first place so I say BAN ABORTION.

I think we should start by preventing you from ever even slightly coercing a woman into having sex with you. And since we can only be sure you won't have sex is to actually remove the penis, I think we should remove your penis to prevent women who don't want to get pregnant from ever being coerced into sleeping with you.

Whoever said the original quote meant that if you did not want the child, you should not have taken the steps to be with child (sex) and since the natural response is what about rape, I say personally you should keep the baby if you are raped, but as far as government goes, it should legal in that circumstance.

[Grid Axes]

To me, the issue of abortion is relatively simple. No uterus, no opinion. I mean, you can have an opinion, but what goes on inside a woman's body is her choice and hers alone.

[Arkinesia]

To me, the issue of abortion is relatively simple. No uterus, no opinion. I mean, you can have an opinion, but what goes on inside a woman's body is her choice and hers alone.

That is a moral opinion built entirely on emotion and at best marginally on reason.

[Dakini]

To me, the issue of abortion is relatively simple. No uterus, no opinion. I mean, you can have an opinion, but what goes on inside a woman's body is her choice and hers alone.

That is a moral opinion built entirely on emotion and at best marginally on reason.

The opinion that every fertilized egg has a right to life? Yeah, that is an opinion built entirely on emotion and not even remotely reasonable. That doesn't seem to be what Grid Axes was advocating, however.

[Arkinesia]

That is a moral opinion built entirely on emotion and at best marginally on reason.

The opinion that every fertilized egg has a right to life? Yeah, that is an opinion built entirely on emotion and not even remotely reasonable. That doesn't seem to be what Grid Axes was advocating, however.

I agree. An unimplanted, fertilized egg has no right to life. It has human material but there isn't the same level of potentiality involved.

“Life begins at conception” is an emotion-laden, brainless platitude.

[Individuality-ness]

Well if they didn't want the damn thing they should have thought of that in the first place so I say BAN ABORTION.

You're under the strange delusion that abortion is only desired in a single circumstance.

How cute.

It's like they've never heard of rape, unviable fetuses, ectopic pregnancies, etc.

[Dakini]

The opinion that every fertilized egg has a right to life? Yeah, that is an opinion built entirely on emotion and not even remotely reasonable. That doesn't seem to be what Grid Axes was advocating, however.

I agree. An unimplanted, fertilized egg has no right to life. It has human material but there isn't the same level of potentiality involved.

“Life begins at conception” is an emotion-laden, brainless platitude.

Right.

So I'm not sure why you responded to someone who said that they didn't have a uterus and therefore considered it to be entirely up to a woman to decide what happens in her body with the sort of response that you gave.

Maybe you meant to quote someone else?

[Immoren]

The opinion that every fertilized egg has a right to life? Yeah, that is an opinion built entirely on emotion and not even remotely reasonable. That doesn't seem to be what Grid Axes was advocating, however.

I agree. An unimplanted, fertilized egg has no right to life. It has human material but there isn't the same level of potentiality involved.

“Life begins at conception” is an emotion-laden, brainless platitude.

Well, life begins even before conception.
Personhood is another matter.