So, Abortion.

[Individuality-ness]

And this is why I was wary of answering the rape question... Okay, the rape victim must be forced to carry the term. Since that kind of legislation will never, and I mean never, get passed, I support the allowing of rape abortions purely to get an anti-abortion bill passed. Better to stop most abortions rather than none..

Then suddenly the rate of reported rapes skyrockets as all women who want an abortion claim they were raped and make up some shady stranger who jumped them on their way home. They just didn't report it immediately because ...uh.... it was an inconvenience...?

No seriously why do you think women should be forced to be incubators when they do not choose to be?

And even then, can you imagine the paperwork and all of that red tape just to prove that a woman was raped just so that she could abort the fetus? By the time you get through all the red tape, the fetus would have been born and it'd be pointless.

[Dakini]

If you believe it is human, then why (without some hocus-pocus Christian explanation) would it be fine to abort a fetus resulting from a rape, but not from consensual sex?

consenting people are aware of what may result from sex and have the ability to say No.

So? Consenting people are aware that a pregnancy may result from sex and that they may have to seek an abortion as much as this is an uncomfortable procedure with unpleasant effects (but still significantly better than carrying a pregnancy to term).

[Auralia]

Humour me. Please explain why some human beings are not human persons.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=243936&p=14761423#p14761423

I'm not really clear on why US constitutional law is ultimately relevant to this debate. I am arguing that abortion should be illegal, because all human beings should be considered human persons under the law. This is a moral/value debate, not a debate about the current legality of abortion in the United States.

[Vazdania]

consenting people are aware of what may result from sex and have the ability to say No.

A person who's raped has no such option.

But how does their consent to sex make it wrong to abort an embryo or fetus?

No logical reason that I can think of really right now, it just does.

[Grad Duchy of Luxembourg]

A human is a human, the manner in which it was created is irrelevant.

and? This is upon the women's shoulders, this is a burden they must bear. If men had children i'd have the same opinion.

But men don't. Besides, I have a serious problem with you saying this is a burden only women must bear. Courts that decide on child support seem to disagree strongly as well.

[Mavorpen]

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=243936&p=14761423#p14761423

I'm not really clear on why US constitutional law is ultimately relevant to this debate. I am arguing that abortion should be illegal, because all human beings should be considered human persons under the law. This is a moral/value debate, not a debate about the current legality of abortion in the United States.

Considering "person" is a legal term, you are quite honestly pissing at the wind.

[Vazdania]

consenting people are aware of what may result from sex and have the ability to say No.

So? Consenting people are aware that a pregnancy may result from sex and that they may have to seek an abortion as much as this is an uncomfortable procedure with unpleasant effects (but still significantly better than carrying a pregnancy to term).

why would you seek an abortion in the first place?

[Dakini]

Then suddenly the rate of reported rapes skyrockets as all women who want an abortion claim they were raped and make up some shady stranger who jumped them on their way home. They just didn't report it immediately because ...uh.... it was an inconvenience...?

No seriously why do you think women should be forced to be incubators when they do not choose to be?

And even then, can you imagine the paperwork and all of that red tape just to prove that a woman was raped just so that she could abort the fetus? By the time you get through all the red tape, the fetus would have been born and it'd be pointless.

Oh yeah, this is totally something that would just be abused into a total prohibition on abortions by people who think that women are incubators first and... well... I'm not sure that they think women are people.

[Asuiop]

And this is why I was wary of answering the rape question... Okay, the rape victim must be forced to carry the term. Since that kind of legislation will never, and I mean never, get passed, I support the allowing of rape abortions purely to get an anti-abortion bill passed. Better to stop most abortions rather than none..

Then suddenly the rate of reported rapes skyrockets as all women who want an abortion claim they were raped and make up some shady stranger who jumped them on their way home. They just didn't report it immediately because ...uh.... it was an inconvenience...?

No seriously why do you think women should be forced to be incubators when they do not choose to be?

I have already answered this question multiple times, but since you insist I repeat myself every fucking time.... The fetus is a living human being. Because it is a living human being, it is protected by the 5th Amendment.

[Grad Duchy of Luxembourg]

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=243936&p=14761423#p14761423

I'm not really clear on why US constitutional law is ultimately relevant to this debate. I am arguing that abortion should be illegal, because all human beings should be considered human persons under the law. This is a moral/value debate, not a debate about the current legality of abortion in the United States.

US constitutional law, the basis of the nation, the basis of the government and law is NOT relevant to this discussion? What the fuck?

[Grad Duchy of Luxembourg]

Then suddenly the rate of reported rapes skyrockets as all women who want an abortion claim they were raped and make up some shady stranger who jumped them on their way home. They just didn't report it immediately because ...uh.... it was an inconvenience...?

No seriously why do you think women should be forced to be incubators when they do not choose to be?

I have already answered this question multiple times, but since you insist I repeat myself every fucking time.... The fetus is a living human being. Because it is a living human being, it is protected by the 8th Amendment.

No one thinks fetus is protected by the 8th amendment.

[Vazdania]

and? This is upon the women's shoulders, this is a burden they must bear. If men had children i'd have the same opinion.

But men don't. Besides, I have a serious problem with you saying this is a burden only women must bear. Courts that decide on child support seem to disagree strongly as well.

that is a burden that a father who is not there for his partner's burden. that is after the child has been birthed though.

[Asuiop]

I have already answered this question multiple times, but since you insist I repeat myself every fucking time.... The fetus is a living human being. Because it is a living human being, it is protected by the 8th Amendment.

No one thinks fetus is protected by the 8th amendment.

Damn it, wrong amendment

[Auralia]

I'm not really clear on why US constitutional law is ultimately relevant to this debate. I am arguing that abortion should be illegal, because all human beings should be considered human persons under the law. This is a moral/value debate, not a debate about the current legality of abortion in the United States.

Considering "person" is a legal term, you are quite honestly pissing at the wind.

Well, then, let's examine the root question: do you believe that all human beings should be considered persons under the law? If not, why not?

[Individuality-ness]

Then suddenly the rate of reported rapes skyrockets as all women who want an abortion claim they were raped and make up some shady stranger who jumped them on their way home. They just didn't report it immediately because ...uh.... it was an inconvenience...?

No seriously why do you think women should be forced to be incubators when they do not choose to be?

I have already answered this question multiple times, but since you insist I repeat myself every fucking time.... The fetus is a living human being. Because it is a living human being, it is protected by the 8th Amendment.

Fetuses are not persons under the Fourteenth Amendment, they are not granted due process, 8th Amendment does not apply.

[Grad Duchy of Luxembourg]

But men don't. Besides, I have a serious problem with you saying this is a burden only women must bear. Courts that decide on child support seem to disagree strongly as well.

that is a burden that a father who is not there for his partner's burden. that is after the child has been birthed though.

Correction. The partner does not have to be married to the biological father to exact his legal obligation to take care of the child.

[Mavorpen]

Considering "person" is a legal term, you are quite honestly pissing at the wind.

Well, then, let's examine the root question: do you believe that all human beings should be considered persons under the law? If not, why not?

This is a nonsensical question. Becoming a person doesn't prelude gaining rights, gaining rights preludes becoming a person. Being a person depends upon having rights.

[Dakini]

Then suddenly the rate of reported rapes skyrockets as all women who want an abortion claim they were raped and make up some shady stranger who jumped them on their way home. They just didn't report it immediately because ...uh.... it was an inconvenience...?

No seriously why do you think women should be forced to be incubators when they do not choose to be?

I have already answered this question multiple times, but since you insist I repeat myself every fucking time.... The fetus is a living human being. Because it is a living human being, it is protected by the 8th Amendment.

1. I'm pretty sure it's not protected by any amendments.
1.a) I don't live in the USA so your amendments are irrelevant to me.

2. Various international treaties recognize women's rights to self-autonomy and reproductive freedom.

If you're going to argue for legal reasons, you might want to make sure that they apply in your case and that there aren't other rules and regulations that support the opposite case more strongly.

Do you have a better reason?

[Individuality-ness]

And even then, can you imagine the paperwork and all of that red tape just to prove that a woman was raped just so that she could abort the fetus? By the time you get through all the red tape, the fetus would have been born and it'd be pointless.

Oh yeah, this is totally something that would just be abused into a total prohibition on abortions by people who think that women are incubators first and... well... I'm not sure that they think women are people.

Exactly, so a rape exception is totally stupid.

[Vazdania]

that is a burden that a father who is not there for his partner's burden. that is after the child has been birthed though.

Correction. The partner does not have to be married to the biological father to exact his legal obligation to take care of the child.

I never said they had to be married?

[Asuiop]

I have already answered this question multiple times, but since you insist I repeat myself every fucking time.... The fetus is a living human being. Because it is a living human being, it is protected by the 8th Amendment.

Fetuses are not persons under the Fourteenth Amendment, they are not granted due process, 8th Amendment does not apply.

Sorry messing up with the Amendments today
And I have already debated with you on this, I'm not going back to that

[Grad Duchy of Luxembourg]

Considering "person" is a legal term, you are quite honestly pissing at the wind.

Well, then, let's examine the root question: do you believe that all human beings should be considered persons under the law? If not, why not?

All human beings ARE given personhood under the law. Fetus is not.

[Individuality-ness]

Fetuses are not persons under the Fourteenth Amendment, they are not granted due process, 8th Amendment does not apply.

Sorry messing up with the Amendments today
And I have already debated with you on this, I'm not going back to that

Too bad, legally they are not persons under the law, as per Roe v. Wade.

[Auralia]

Well, then, let's examine the root question: do you believe that all human beings should be considered persons under the law? If not, why not?

This is a nonsensical question. Becoming a person doesn't preclude gaining rights, gaining rights precludes becoming a person. Being a person depends upon having rights.

OK, then, let's examine another question: do you believe that human beings have a right to life? If so, doesn't abortion violate this right?

[Asuiop]

I have already answered this question multiple times, but since you insist I repeat myself every fucking time.... The fetus is a living human being. Because it is a living human being, it is protected by the 8th Amendment.

1. I'm pretty sure it's not protected by any amendments.
1.a) I don't live in the USA so your amendments are irrelevant to me.

2. Various international treaties recognize women's rights to self-autonomy and reproductive freedom.

If you're going to argue for legal reasons, you might want to make sure that they apply in your case and that there aren't other rules and regulations that support the opposite case more strongly.

Do you have a better reason?

It is a human being, and killing a living human being is wrong, assuming they aren't coming at you with a knife.