Privileged Backlash: Myth and Reality

[The Steel Magnolia]

Actually anti-sex feminists are usually the most, heh, privileged of the lot.

thanks for totally and completely proving my point.
They say the same shit about you. Now why the fuck should we take either of you seriously when your arguments can be used to justify or disprove any position anyone holds if you accept the argument as valid?

You say they are privileged. You say I'm privileged. You say anyone who disagrees with you and isn't a very specific subset of people is privileged. They say the same thing. And you say this in such a way as to dismiss their arguments.
So which of you is right? Hint: It's got nothing to do with which of you is more privileged. It's to do with their argument and it's structure, shocking stuff I know.

I've seen you throw around the "male privilege" thing as though it wins you arguments. I've seen them do the same thing, and when you argue with eachother you both do it. So what the fuck? Why bother when all it does is demonstrate you are blaming someones gender for their politics? Something that is so mindbogglingly sexist i'm surprised your head doesn't explode from hypocrisy every time you do it.

I dunno, because maybe as a man you didn't get it drilled into your head from an early age that if you go out when it gets dark you're going to be raped.

I do find it rather amusing of course, seeing as how I'm far from the most adamant supporters of the concept of privilege. Even on here.

[Ostroeuropa]

thanks for totally and completely proving my point.
They say the same shit about you. Now why the fuck should we take either of you seriously when your arguments can be used to justify or disprove any position anyone holds if you accept the argument as valid?

You say they are privileged. You say I'm privileged. You say anyone who disagrees with you and isn't a very specific subset of people is privileged. They say the same thing. And you say this in such a way as to dismiss their arguments.
So which of you is right? Hint: It's got nothing to do with which of you is more privileged. It's to do with their argument and it's structure, shocking stuff I know.

I've seen you throw around the "male privilege" thing as though it wins you arguments. I've seen them do the same thing, and when you argue with eachother you both do it. So what the fuck? Why bother when all it does is demonstrate you are blaming someones gender for their politics? Something that is so mindbogglingly sexist i'm surprised your head doesn't explode from hypocrisy every time you do it.

I dunno, because maybe as a man you didn't get it drilled into your head from an early age that if you go out when it gets dark you're going to be raped.

I do find it rather amusing of course, seeing as how I'm far from the most adamant supporters of the concept of privilege. Even on here.

SO you were raised by sexists who decided to drill it into you that one gender is going to rape you, and decided to become a sexist to solve it.
Good job. You're helping nobody.
If my parents raised me to fear black people because they are statistically more likely to be my mugger, It wouldn't justify racism. In addition, what you just said has absolutely nothing to do with what I just said, except perhaps as listing a privelege.

Ok.
Men are not raised to fear the opposite gender. -Male Privilege
Women don't have to put up with idiots raising children to fear them. -Female Privilege

[The Steel Magnolia]

I dunno, because maybe as a man you didn't get it drilled into your head from an early age that if you go out when it gets dark you're going to be raped.

I do find it rather amusing of course, seeing as how I'm far from the most adamant supporters of the concept of privilege. Even on here.

SO you were raised by sexists who decided to drill it into you that one gender is going to rape you, and decided to become a sexist to solve it.
Good job. You're helping nobody.
If my parents raised me to fear black people because they are statistically more likely to be my mugger, It wouldn't justify racism.

10/10, would dodge again.

[Ostroeuropa]

SO you were raised by sexists who decided to drill it into you that one gender is going to rape you, and decided to become a sexist to solve it.
Good job. You're helping nobody.
If my parents raised me to fear black people because they are statistically more likely to be my mugger, It wouldn't justify racism.

10/10, would dodge again.

Dodge what. You're not saying anything meaningful. Your eyes have glazed over and you're just spouting feminist verse.
I've seen you specifically disbelieve my gender identity because you think it'd remove your argument of privilege. Don't bullshit me about you not being a supporter of it.

[Cannot think of a name]

Ahahah you crack me up.

Glad you're being obvious about your lies though! First page too!

Should I get you flowers? Or maybe a cake!

But wait those are gifts traditionally given to women and we obviously can't have men being feminine or acting womanly so I suppose that's out of the question.


It seriously baffles me how you persistently and deliberately fail to dig any deeper into your sets of preconceived notions that you love trumpeting every chance you get, like bitching about feminism somehow makes you 'enlightened' or 'smarter' than the rest.

There are legitimate issues to raise against feminism. Transphobia, racism, classism. Those are all really powerful arguments that the feminist movement struggles with.

Crying "But what about the poor men!" at every opportunity is just a deliberate distraction, like the bum who complains of chest pain at a crash site when all he has is bruised ribs. He takes valuable time and effort away from the people who need help more, and in doing so consigns many others to death.

I don't believe we need to focus more energy on the bum.

And why should the problems men be disregarded?

Are we, really? Because, I gotta tell ya man, I just don't see it. I've read through all of these diatribes about how feminism is mean to men etc...but I gotta tell ya, I just don't fucking see it. I don't feel the crushing hand of feminism reigning in my manness as I walk about, I don't feel it restricting my existence. When I see a 'feminist rant,' I manage to have a comfortable enough relationship with my ego to realize that when she says 'male' she's not actually referring to me specifically and a series of conscious decisions I made but rather the pervasive construct of a society that very clearly throughout history was stacked towards men and somehow didn't magically remove all the connotations of that because women were begrudgingly allowed in the work force. When I hear of improving the position and attitudes towards women I don't really have to be told 'what's in it for me' and if I did I manage to see that it improves my lot as well as it relieves me of accompanying assumptions born from traditional gender roles.

I mean, we've had how many months now of dudes trying to tell me how as a dude I should feel threatened by feminists and how they're only out for themselves, I just haven't been able to buy it yet. I don't know, freak out some more, you might make a sale yet.

[Ostroeuropa]

And why should the problems men be disregarded?

Are we, really? Because, I gotta tell ya man, I just don't see it. I've read through all of these diatribes about how feminism is mean to men etc...but I gotta tell ya, I just don't fucking see it. I don't feel the crushing hand of feminism reigning in my manness as I walk about, I don't feel it restricting my existence. When I see a 'feminist rant,' I manage to have a comfortable enough relationship with my ego to realize that when she says 'male' she's not actually referring to me specifically and a series of conscious decisions I made but rather the pervasive construct of a society that very clearly throughout history was stacked towards men and somehow didn't magically remove all the connotations of that because women were begrudgingly allowed in the work force. When I hear of improving the position and attitudes towards women I don't really have to be told 'what's in it for me' and if I did I manage to see that it improves my lot as well as it relieves me of accompanying assumptions born from traditional gender roles.

I mean, we've had how many months now of dudes trying to tell me how as a dude I should feel threatened by feminists and how they're only out for themselves, I just haven't been able to buy it yet. I don't know, freak out some more, you might make a sale yet.

If you havn't experienced sexism as a result of being male, then good for you. It doesn't apply universally. Nor does it to Women. I'm sure some women would contend they do not suffer from sexism directed at them too and don't understand what the fuss is about.
It's not that feminism is mean to men directly, it's that feminists consistently shut down any attempt to shift focus away from women into more neutral ground.
The fact is, as a male you are more likely to suffer violence. And die in the work place. And equally likely to suffer domestic abuse, while very unlikely to receive any help for it. You are more likely to have a Prejudiced judge who will take your children from you. etc

[The Steel Magnolia]

10/10, would dodge again.

Dodge what. You're not saying anything meaningful. Your eyes have glazed over and you're just spouting feminist verse.
I've seen you specifically disbelieve my gender identity because you think it'd remove your argument of privilege. Don't bullshit me about you not being a supporter of it.

Nah, because you're doing it as a political statement.

[Ostroeuropa]

Dodge what. You're not saying anything meaningful. Your eyes have glazed over and you're just spouting feminist verse.
I've seen you specifically disbelieve my gender identity because you think it'd remove your argument of privilege. Don't bullshit me about you not being a supporter of it.

Nah, because you're doing it as a political statement.

So are you.
There. See how completely useless and unprovable that is, in addition to offensive?
The fact that you think it's a political statement shows you think privilege is a valid concept.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Nah, because you're doing it as a political statement.

So are you.
There. See how completely useless and unprovable that is, in addition to offensive?
The fact that you think it's a political statement shows you think privilege is a valid concept.

I do, and I'm perfectly aware that you're only doing it out of some bizarre and idiotic desire for utter homogeneity. "I'm a human, above all else."

[Des-Bal]

Privilege obviously exists where there is a disparity one party is always better off if just very slightly. The issue is somewhere along the lines we decided that it's completely okay to disregard the legitimate grievances of these privileged people.

[Ostroeuropa]

So are you.
There. See how completely useless and unprovable that is, in addition to offensive?
The fact that you think it's a political statement shows you think privilege is a valid concept.

I do, and I'm perfectly aware that you're only doing it out of some bizarre and idiotic desire for utter homogeneity. "I'm a human, above all else."

I do not know why I identify the way I do, I just do. If you want to ascribe a subconscious motive then fine. I'll have it on record that you consider agendered people to do it out of bizarre and idiotic desires.

[Cannot think of a name]

Are we, really? Because, I gotta tell ya man, I just don't see it. I've read through all of these diatribes about how feminism is mean to men etc...but I gotta tell ya, I just don't fucking see it. I don't feel the crushing hand of feminism reigning in my manness as I walk about, I don't feel it restricting my existence. When I see a 'feminist rant,' I manage to have a comfortable enough relationship with my ego to realize that when she says 'male' she's not actually referring to me specifically and a series of conscious decisions I made but rather the pervasive construct of a society that very clearly throughout history was stacked towards men and somehow didn't magically remove all the connotations of that because women were begrudgingly allowed in the work force. When I hear of improving the position and attitudes towards women I don't really have to be told 'what's in it for me' and if I did I manage to see that it improves my lot as well as it relieves me of accompanying assumptions born from traditional gender roles.

I mean, we've had how many months now of dudes trying to tell me how as a dude I should feel threatened by feminists and how they're only out for themselves, I just haven't been able to buy it yet. I don't know, freak out some more, you might make a sale yet.

If you havn't experienced sexism as a result of being male, then good for you. It doesn't apply universally. Nor does it to Women. I'm sure some women would contend they do not suffer from sexism directed at them too and don't understand what the fuss is about.
It's not that feminism is mean to men directly, it's that feminists consistently shut down any attempt to shift focus away from women into more neutral ground.

It's not just that I don't experience it (and that wouldn't even be completely true, I have encountered so-called 'man hatting women' who have cloaked their non-sense in a thin veneer of feminism, but I don't hold these people as representative any more than I would the Westboro Baptist Church representative of Christianity in general), it's that all the hand-wringing and cries of 'but what about the men folk' just haven't been convincing. They just haven't. Months of this shit, months of other dudes trying to tell me how horrible it is and I still just don't see it. It hasn't once managed to not look at the kid sitting on a pile of toys complaining that they want one too when someone hands the poor kid a toy.

I just don't see it. And, I have to say, the longer these things go on the more shrill the argument sounds.

I'm a dude. I am not convinced. I am not threatened by feminism nor do I feel left out. Your case, so far, has not been made. Chances are, given the pattern of these threads, soon I'll be finding myself wishing you'd stop insulting men in your desperate attempt to defend them. I don't know, maybe the one thousand three hundred and sixty second time is the charm and you'll manage to make the case.

[The Steel Magnolia]

I do, and I'm perfectly aware that you're only doing it out of some bizarre and idiotic desire for utter homogeneity. "I'm a human, above all else."

I do not know why I identify the way I do, I just do. If you want to ascribe a subconscious motive then fine. I'll have it on record that you consider agendered people to do it out of bizarre and idiotic desires.

Not at all.

I think you are. Very big difference.

[Ostroeuropa]

If you havn't experienced sexism as a result of being male, then good for you. It doesn't apply universally. Nor does it to Women. I'm sure some women would contend they do not suffer from sexism directed at them too and don't understand what the fuss is about.
It's not that feminism is mean to men directly, it's that feminists consistently shut down any attempt to shift focus away from women into more neutral ground.

It's not just that I don't experience it (and that wouldn't even be completely true, I have encountered so-called 'man hatting women' who have cloaked their non-sense in a thin veneer of feminism, but I don't hold these people as representative any more than I would the Westboro Baptist Church representative of Christianity in general), it's that all the hand-wringing and cries of 'but what about the men folk' just haven't been convincing. They just haven't. Months of this shit, months of other dudes trying to tell me how horrible it is and I still just don't see it. It hasn't once managed to not look at the kid sitting on a pile of toys complaining that they want one too when someone hands the poor kid a toy.

I just don't see it. And, I have to say, the longer these things go on the more shrill the argument sounds.

I'm a dude. I am not convinced. I am not threatened by feminism nor do I feel left out. Your case, so far, has not been made. Chances are, given the pattern of these threads, soon I'll be finding myself wishing you'd stop insulting men in your desperate attempt to defend them. I don't know, maybe the one thousand three hundred and sixty second time is the charm and you'll manage to make the case.

Do you care about the fact that men die more and suffer more violence in the workplace than women?
Do you care about this less, equally, or more than the fact women suffer a small pay gap.
The fact that you don't care about the suffering of men is another example of female privelege. We're raised as a society to not care about men suffering, and to care disproportionately about women and children suffering.
The result is to infantilize women and render males into disposable units.
You can admit all you like that you don't see it or don't feel bad about it, but that's just you admitting you hold a sexist view.
It'd be equally sexist to say "I just don't care about the pay gap."

[The Steel Magnolia]

It's not just that I don't experience it (and that wouldn't even be completely true, I have encountered so-called 'man hatting women' who have cloaked their non-sense in a thin veneer of feminism, but I don't hold these people as representative any more than I would the Westboro Baptist Church representative of Christianity in general), it's that all the hand-wringing and cries of 'but what about the men folk' just haven't been convincing. They just haven't. Months of this shit, months of other dudes trying to tell me how horrible it is and I still just don't see it. It hasn't once managed to not look at the kid sitting on a pile of toys complaining that they want one too when someone hands the poor kid a toy.

I just don't see it. And, I have to say, the longer these things go on the more shrill the argument sounds.

I'm a dude. I am not convinced. I am not threatened by feminism nor do I feel left out. Your case, so far, has not been made. Chances are, given the pattern of these threads, soon I'll be finding myself wishing you'd stop insulting men in your desperate attempt to defend them. I don't know, maybe the one thousand three hundred and sixty second time is the charm and you'll manage to make the case.

Do you care about the fact that men die more and suffer more violence in the workplace than women?
Do you care about this less, equally, or more than the fact women suffer a small pay gap.
The fact that you don't care about the suffering of men is another example of female privelege. We're raised as a society to not care about men suffering, and to care disproportionately about women and children suffering.
The result is to infantilize women and render males into disposable units.

Funny that the more dangerous jobs in the workplace is actually because they're excluding women from those very same jobs.

[Ostroeuropa]

Do you care about the fact that men die more and suffer more violence in the workplace than women?
Do you care about this less, equally, or more than the fact women suffer a small pay gap.
The fact that you don't care about the suffering of men is another example of female privelege. We're raised as a society to not care about men suffering, and to care disproportionately about women and children suffering.
The result is to infantilize women and render males into disposable units.

Funny that the more dangerous jobs in the workplace is actually because they're excluding women from those very same jobs.

Any source?

[The Steel Magnolia]

Funny that the more dangerous jobs in the workplace is actually because they're excluding women from those very same jobs.

Any source?

Source for a prevailing unspoken unverbalized trend in society? Do you want a source for the fact that women were discouraged to get a career in the 60s too?

[Ostroeuropa]

Any source?

Source for a prevailing unspoken unverbalized trend in society? Do you want a source for the fact that women were discouraged to get a career in the 60s too?

Do you have a source showing that the reason for the disproportionate rates of death in the workplace is a result of women being excluded from dangerous jobs. Yes or no, and if yes, please provide it.

[Des-Bal]

Source for a prevailing unspoken unverbalized trend in society? Do you want a source for the fact that women were discouraged to get a career in the 60s too?

It'd be nice yeah.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Do you care about the fact that men die more and suffer more violence in the workplace than women?
Do you care about this less, equally, or more than the fact women suffer a small pay gap.
The fact that you don't care about the suffering of men is another example of female privelege. We're raised as a society to not care about men suffering, and to care disproportionately about women and children suffering.
The result is to infantilize women and render males into disposable units.

Funny that the more dangerous jobs in the workplace is actually because they're excluding women from those very same jobs.

Perhaps if you're using a very loose definition of excluding that plays into societal stereotypes and cultural rules (women don't work in MINES/etc.). Is there some evidence of companies actively excluding females from dangerous positions? Because this seems like more of a social consequence of gender roles prevelance (much as men taking those same dangerous jobs and being 'disposable units' as Ostro- asserts) than an active conspiracy.

[Cannot think of a name]

It's not just that I don't experience it (and that wouldn't even be completely true, I have encountered so-called 'man hatting women' who have cloaked their non-sense in a thin veneer of feminism, but I don't hold these people as representative any more than I would the Westboro Baptist Church representative of Christianity in general), it's that all the hand-wringing and cries of 'but what about the men folk' just haven't been convincing. They just haven't. Months of this shit, months of other dudes trying to tell me how horrible it is and I still just don't see it. It hasn't once managed to not look at the kid sitting on a pile of toys complaining that they want one too when someone hands the poor kid a toy.

I just don't see it. And, I have to say, the longer these things go on the more shrill the argument sounds.

I'm a dude. I am not convinced. I am not threatened by feminism nor do I feel left out. Your case, so far, has not been made. Chances are, given the pattern of these threads, soon I'll be finding myself wishing you'd stop insulting men in your desperate attempt to defend them. I don't know, maybe the one thousand three hundred and sixty second time is the charm and you'll manage to make the case.

Do you care about the fact that men die more and suffer more violence in the workplace than women?

Can you link this problem directly to an issue of women's attitude toward men? If we somehow improved the way women treated men specifically in society would this situation improve? Or in fact can you provide this statistic that controls for actual representation? Moreover, does approaching issues of women in society in any way hinder or prevent anyone from dealing with issues of violence, stress, and abuses in the workplace?

In short, can you in any way make this random unsourced factoid feminisms problem?

Do you care about this less, equally, or more than the fact women suffer a small pay gap.

Did the internet do this to you, where you have to put everything in its proper place on a top ten list and then debate rabidly about the positions of items 4 and 6? There is no 'more or less or equally'...they are separate issues and I do not rank them on a scale to make sure I'm properly more or less outraged at a thing to justify my positions.

The fact that you don't care about the suffering of men is another example of female privelege.

That, right there, that's the kind of slippery desperate bullshit that makes these things so utterly unconvincing.

[Ostroeuropa]

Funny that the more dangerous jobs in the workplace is actually because they're excluding women from those very same jobs.

Perhaps if you're using a very loose definition of excluding that plays into societal stereotypes and cultural rules (women don't work in MINES/etc.). Is there some evidence of companies actively excluding females from dangerous positions? Because this seems like more of a social consequence of gender roles prevelance (much as men taking those same dangerous jobs and being 'disposable units' as Ostro- asserts) than an active conspiracy.

You've pre-empted my response already.
"Again we see that the feminist decides it must be to do with hating women somehow, once again demonstrating their totally narrow worldview."

"men are dying much more than women in the workplace."
"Because women are excluded from the jobs!!!!" <- Casually ignores that this thoroughly implies that it is acceptable for males to die at work, but unnacceptable for females to.

[Ostroeuropa]

Do you care about the fact that men die more and suffer more violence in the workplace than women?

Can you link this problem directly to an issue of women's attitude toward men? If we somehow improved the way women treated men specifically in society would this situation improve? Or in fact can you provide this statistic that controls for actual representation? Moreover, does approaching issues of women in society in any way hinder or prevent anyone from dealing with issues of violence, stress, and abuses in the workplace?

In short, can you in any way make this random unsourced factoid feminisms problem?

Do you care about this less, equally, or more than the fact women suffer a small pay gap.

Did the internet do this to you, where you have to put everything in its proper place on a top ten list and then debate rabidly about the positions of items 4 and 6? There is no 'more or less or equally'...they are separate issues and I do not rank them on a scale to make sure I'm properly more or less outraged at a thing to justify my positions.

The fact that you don't care about the suffering of men is another example of female privelege.

That, right there, that's the kind of slippery desperate bullshit that makes these things so utterly unconvincing.

It's a problem with societies attitude to men. I'm not blaming one gender. I don't think feminism is equipped to deal with the problems facing us with regard to gender politics, so it isn't their problem, and i'm not trying to make it their problem. I'm pointing out that they cannot claim to be in favor of gender equality as their entire set-up ignores these problems.

[Des-Bal]

You've pre-empted my response already.
"Again we see that the feminist decides it must be to do with hating women somehow, once again demonstrating their totally narrow worldview."

"men are dying much more than women in the workplace."
"Because women are excluded from the jobs!!!!" <- Casually ignores that this thoroughly implies that it is acceptable for males to die at work, but unnacceptable for females to.

I like that when society imposes roles on women it's men oppressing women but when society imposes roles on men it's just another aspect of men oppressing women.

[Ostroeuropa]

You've pre-empted my response already.
"Again we see that the feminist decides it must be to do with hating women somehow, once again demonstrating their totally narrow worldview."

"men are dying much more than women in the workplace."
"Because women are excluded from the jobs!!!!" <- Casually ignores that this thoroughly implies that it is acceptable for males to die at work, but unnacceptable for females to.

I like that when society imposes roles on women it's men oppressing women but when society imposes roles on men it's just another aspect of men oppressing women.

And that's even assuming she didn't just completely make it up.