Gay recruit complains about being called a fag in USMC

[Delmonte]

How do you prove that someone is gay?

Ask them.

And just take their word on it?! So if my commanding officer punished me for a totally valid reason I could just lie and say I'm gay (well, I am actually gay), to get him in trouble? You realize how stupid that is, right? That we just have to take their word on it? Do you not comprehend how irretrievably TERRIBLE that is?!

And how do you prove that the other person knew they were?

If they were discriminating against someone else for being gay, they probably knew that someone else was gay. Just guessing.

But... Oh my God... Oh my God... Do you even realize-!? Okay. Okay. Deep breaths. Alright. Let's pretend, just pretend, that Private X is not gay. That he is straight. And his sergeant or whatever punishes him for doing a shit job at something. He could claim that he was gay and that his sergeant knew it and it would be his word against his sergeant's. And nothing could be proven either way.

[Czechanada]

The USMC do seem to be operating a system not unlike a sixties cult leader brainwashing new recruits.

How so?

Every military does that.

[Northern Dominus]

Alright then, so if the only thing that matters in the military is capability (which is mostly true), then why delve into divisive slurs rather than not run the risk of alienating somebody?

What exactly is the matter with calling somebody a "worthless weak sack of shit!" when they don't do the prescribed amount of pushups instead of "fag!"? Why can't somebody be a "lazy incompetent fuckstick" when they don't clear an obstacle instead of a "fag!"?

There are plenty of other options to go to without devolving into biased and divisive slurs when training recruits, and devolving to that point speaks to either somebody who passed by the skin of their teeth or a program that isn't selecting the very best.

Ever tried yelling for a whole day at raw recruits who don't know shit about warfare and yet dare to get uppity about your choice of words? Even though there are plenty of imaginative ways you can express yourself as an instructor, I doubt you'd be very picky about your vocabulary at the end of the day just for the sake of political correctness.

As for the dehumanization part, that is precisely what military training is for. War is something where you will face horrors that would drive an unprepared man insane on a daily basis. It's an affair where every second runs the risk of you getting killed, or your comrades getting killed if you get sloppy even for an instant. Hence the training must ensure that you are able to overcome the urge to shit your pants, sit down in the mud and cry for mommy when the bullets start flying, and somehow retain your sanity while scraping the guts of your best buddy off your helmet while just seconds ago you were sharing a smoke and a lewd joke before a mortar shell reduced him to his basic components. It must ensure that you will still be able to stand up and fight afterwards and not drop the ball so that more of your buddies don't end up like that poor bastard who got hit by that shell. War isn't an affair where you can afford to be John Travis, a heterosexual Black guy, or Jane Traynor, a White homosexual lass, because all that is irrelevant to your current purpose. You may only be Sgt. Travis - a soldier or Pvt. Traynor - a soldier. The faceless persona of "Soldier" is your shield from insanity and from failure. And only when you are done fighting, you and your buddies asses are safe again, may you again return to your civilian self.

That is what all this training is really for.

Right... so again how does potentially alienating people when esprit de corps is the standard help anything?

And I seriously doubt that if DI's have to drop all slurs that training will suffer in any way. There are plenty grabasstic pieces of amphibian shit to go around anyway.

[Ifreann]

The USMC do seem to be operating a system not unlike a sixties cult leader brainwashing new recruits.

How so?

Complete eradication of one's identity separate from the cult/Corps.

[The UK in Exile]

The USMC do seem to be operating a system not unlike a sixties cult leader brainwashing new recruits.

How so?

sleep deprivation combined with parrotted dogma and isolation from previously existing mechanisms of emotional support.

[Yankee Empire]

"The military, where you go to lose your identity and humanity. "

"Muh humanities"

So edgy

They lose their civilian garbage and gain military bulk.

[Ovisterra]

Not to be obstructively cynical, but it seems that we're recapitulating the same arguments over and over again. Except on one side it's the same people repeating themselves, and on the other it's a slow but steady influx of people with the same tired, wrong ideas who can't be fucked reading the thread and have to be proven wrong just like their predecessors.

And then there's the wannabe jarhead (I fervently hope, because the alternative is that they actually let this guy point a gun at people) in his corner laying out an unsettling little wall of text every now and again.

Cynicism. Lots of cynicism. You'll go far here.

Is this thread really achieving anything anymore? Honest question.

....once you learn how to take on dead horses, of course.

[Helicthon]

Welcome to NSG. Threads here tend towards looping.

I suppose there's a Freudian kind of comfort in that.

Oh, well. When in Rome, et cetera.

*overromanticized military wank*

That is what all this training is really for.

Have you ever served?

[Yankee Empire]

How so?

sleep deprivation combined with parrotted dogma and isolation from previously existing mechanisms of emotional support.

Jeez i could describe my school experiance like that, guess it means they brainwashed me...they couldn't of just been educating me no, that'd make sense.

[The UK in Exile]

But... Oh my God... Oh my God... Do you even realize-!? Okay. Okay. Deep breaths. Alright. Let's pretend, just pretend, that Private X is not gay. That he is straight. And his sergeant or whatever punishes him for doing a shit job at something. He could claim that he was gay and that his sergeant knew it and it would be his word against his sergeant's. And nothing could be proven either way.

and your "solution" is to have a policy of always backing the Sargeant.

[Delmonte]

"The military, where you go to lose your identity and humanity. "

"Muh humanities"

So edgy

They lose their civilian garbage and gain military bulk.

Need we remind you why the military exists? To protect us. When a dog turns on its master it needs to be put down.

[Galloism]

"The military, where you go to lose your identity and humanity. "

"Muh humanities"

So edgy

They lose their civilian garbage and gain military bulk.

I was merely summarizing the quoted post. It's not necessarily something I believe.

If I believed sidhae's post to be 100% accurate, I would be forced to support and push for containment of the soldiers before reentering the country, along with a full psychological evaluation to ensure they can function in society before being released.

[Yankee Empire]

Anyone else notice that the majority of the people siding with this recruit have ponies on/as their flags?

There's gotta be a connection their...

[Czechanada]

sleep deprivation combined with parrotted dogma and isolation from previously existing mechanisms of emotional support.

Jeez i could describe my school experiance like that, guess it means they brainwashed me...they couldn't of just been educating me no, that'd make sense.

If they educated you, you'd be able to use proper spelling and grammar.

However, schools are actually meant to be agents of socialization by the state. They're referred to as "total institutions" in sociology, which is a term also used to describe prisons.

[Ifreann]

"The military, where you go to lose your identity and humanity. "

"Muh humanities"

So edgy

They lose their civilian garbage and gain military bulk.

You learn that in boot camp?

[Frisivisia]

Anyone else notice that the majorit of the people siding with this recruti have ponies on/as their flags?

There's gotta be a connection their...

So your argument is "LOL UR GAY". Isn't that what it's been the whole time?

[The UK in Exile]

sleep deprivation combined with parrotted dogma and isolation from previously existing mechanisms of emotional support.

Jeez i could describe my school experiance like that, guess it means they brainwashed me...they couldn't of just been educating me no, that'd make sense.

you've either never been to school or you've never been in training. well, tell a lie, it could be both.

[Delmonte]

But... Oh my God... Oh my God... Do you even realize-!? Okay. Okay. Deep breaths. Alright. Let's pretend, just pretend, that Private X is not gay. That he is straight. And his sergeant or whatever punishes him for doing a shit job at something. He could claim that he was gay and that his sergeant knew it and it would be his word against his sergeant's. And nothing could be proven either way.

and your "solution" is to have a policy of always backing the Sargeant.

No! It works the opposite way too! You can't tell someone is gay just by looking at them so if a sergeant knew that someone was gay and WAS discriminating against them, he could just deny up and down that he knew, and again the guy couldn't even PROVE that he's gay, and it would be his word against the other guy's. In fact, that scenario should convince you even MORE that DADT was legit. That way if the sergeant tried to pry to find out someone's sexuality, he'd be out of the military. So if a case of gay discrimination even went to tribunal you knew that SOMEBODY had done something wrong. Either someone was lying about the whole thing, or somebody asked, or somebody told.

[Galloism]

"Muh humanities"

So edgy

They lose their civilian garbage and gain military bulk.

You learn that in boot camp?

I would think bulk would be a disadvantage in combat, for a myriad of reasons, the least of which is it makes you a larger target.

[Czechanada]

Anyone else notice that the majorit of the people siding with this recruti have ponies on/as their flags?

There's gotta be a connection their...

So your argument is "LOL UR GAY". Isn't that what it's been the whole time?

He's just new.

Too young to know that Bronyism was the defining ideology of NS in 2012.

[Ifreann]

Anyone else notice that the majority of the people siding with this recruit have ponies on/as their flags?

There's gotta be a connection their...

Oh yeah. We're big on love and tolerance, us bronies. It's kind of our thing.

[Risottia]

...The purpose of such brutal training is to deconstruct one's civilian identity and reforge it into a new one - into a soldier.

...In the army, the only thing that matters is how well you do your job, i.e., keeping yourself and your comrades from dying for your country and making the other bastards die for theirs. Hence, your only acceptable identity is that of a soldier

...Ever tried yelling for a whole day at raw recruits who don't know shit about warfare and yet dare to get uppity about your choice of words? Even though there are plenty of imaginative ways you can express yourself as an instructor, I doubt you'd be very picky about your vocabulary at the end of the day just for the sake of political correctness.

As for the dehumanization part, that is precisely what military training is for. ...

(sorry for mixing a bit the quotes, but they're all yours, although from two different posts)

1.I do teach for whole years at students who don't know shit about maths and physics and yet dare to get uppity about studying. And I'm VERY picky about my own vocabulary.

2.A soldier is also a citizen and a human. People who are human, fighters and not citizens are called mercenaries. Objects who aren't human but are employed by the military are called hardware. You can't dehumanize and de-civilize a person if you want a soldier. A soldier fights for his country and is ready even to risk his live because he's a citizen who understands his civilization, its values, and his fellow humans are worth the risk and the toil. A mercenary doesn't give a shit about civilization, citizenship and humans - he just wants his pay. And hardware, well, that hasn't even go a mind.

[L Ron Cupboard]

The USMC do seem to be operating a system not unlike a sixties cult leader brainwashing new recruits.

How so?

It appears, from the story in your OP, to fit Singer's six points of thought reform quite closely.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cults_in_Our_Midst

[Yankee Empire]

"Muh humanities"

So edgy

They lose their civilian garbage and gain military bulk.

I was merely summarizing the quoted post. It's not necessarily something I believe.

If I believed sidhae's post to be 100% accurate, I would be forced to support and push for containment of the soldiers before reentering the country, along with a full psychological evaluation to ensure they can function in society before being released.

I beleive they do that now, they wind soldiers down for reentry in civilian life, so their not as alert which may be viewed as paranoia, as the transportation back to the Nation is much quicker than the mind adapts.

[Yankee Empire]

You learn that in boot camp?

I would think bulk would be a disadvantage in combat, for a myriad of reasons, the least of which is it makes you a larger target.

Well i was saying it symbolically, but they do in terms of muscle mass, doesn't necessarily make them giants though.