Vaccines and whether or not there is a choice

[Mauretania Tingitana]

That's the last time I try to obliquely point out how stupid one of your statements are.

Lesson learned - never use subtlety, since your effort will be wasted every time.

Better luck next time.

[Imsogone]

Forcing vaccines is the same thing as sending all HIV carriers to islands.

With all the major funding/profit these big pharma companies make with vaccines, I question the validity of much of this research.

Furthermore, the germs them inoculate you with are synthetic, not natural.

Can I have word with you about false equivalencies? HIV/AIDS is a communicable disease, that is true, but, unless the retrovirus becomes airborne, it poses no danger to people who are informed and intelligent and who know how to moderate their behavior so sending the people who are carriers to an island would be draconian. Vaccines, however, serve to prevent diseases that are communicated through everyday, public behavior like sneezing or shaking hands (I have not yet heard of a case of HIV being transmitted in these fashions), so, requiring vaccines for children attending public schools or for anyone traveling outside the country is not extreme, merely common sense.

[Cashewbutter]

Let's say that Sam has two children and both of them have severe reactions to a vaccine, requiring hospitalization to survive. Then s/he has a third child. Should Sam be forced to vaccinate that child knowing that the odds of a bad reaction are high?

What if the first child was okay but the second almost died? Is that sufficient justification for opting out for child #3? Where do we draw the lines?

Vaccines are generally good but there ARE risks to them, and everyone should be able to choose for himself/herself and his/her family whether the risks are worth it. You are not increasing others' risk of getting a disease simply by choosing not to vaccinate. To pass a disease to others, you have to get the disease first. Public health is a better argument for quarantining active, especially dangerous infections than it is for forcing people to put something into their bodies that carries some risk of complications. "You can't come to school if you're sick with something contagious" makes a lot more sense than "You can't come to school if you're not vaccinated even if you're perfectly healthy."

Some of the drop in deaths from commonly vaccinated disease is because of vaccines, yes. And some is because of improved hygiene/sanitation and improvements in diagnostics and treatment. You were more likely to die of influenza in the USA in 1880 than 1980 even before flu shots because the average American in 1980 was better fed, healthier overall, and had access to much better medical treatment in the event of a complication.

[Imsogone]

Let's say that Sam has two children and both of them have severe reactions to a vaccine, requiring hospitalization to survive. Then s/he has a third child. Should Sam be forced to vaccinate that child knowing that the odds of a bad reaction are high?

What if the first child was okay but the second almost died? Is that sufficient justification for opting out for child #3? Where do we draw the lines?

Vaccines are generally good but there ARE risks to them, and everyone should be able to choose for himself/herself and his/her family whether the risks are worth it. You are not increasing others' risk of getting a disease simply by choosing not to vaccinate. To pass a disease to others, you have to get the disease first. Public health is a better argument for quarantining active, especially dangerous infections than it is for forcing people to put something into their bodies that carries some risk of complications. "You can't come to school if you're sick with something contagious" makes a lot more sense than "You can't come to school if you're not vaccinated even if you're perfectly healthy."

Some of the drop in deaths from commonly vaccinated disease is because of vaccines, yes. And some is because of improved hygiene/sanitation and improvements in diagnostics and treatment. You were more likely to die of influenza in the USA in 1880 than 1980 even before flu shots because the average American in 1980 was better fed, healthier overall, and had access to much better medical treatment in the event of a complication.

The flaw in the "you can't come to school if you're sick" argument is this - diseases are at their most contagious when you're still asymptomatic. If you go to school or the office or wherever the day before the symptoms manifest, you've already infected everyone you've come in contact with - if they haven't had vaccinations - this is Public Healtlh 101.

And you do have the choice of vaccinating or not. If you don't want to send your child to public school, you don't have to vaccinate, you can home school or send them to private schools that feel as you do. It's only mandatory if you want to have the benefit of public education or using public venues. PetSmart tells me that I can't bring my dog in the store unless she's vaccinated and the public schools tell me, and they're within their rights to do so, that I can't send my kids to school if I don't vaccinate. My options are 1. vaccinate, 2. find an alternate means of educating my child that still meets minimum standards. 3. Hole up in the wilderness somewhere and hope no one finds me (except possibly the rabid bats or hantavirus carrying deermice).

[Dakini]

They should (of course) be mandatory. Unless a person has an allergy to the vaccine ingredients or some sort of actual medial issue that makes taking a vaccine particularly dangerous. Not bullshit "it will cause autism" or such garbage.

[Avenio]

Let's say that Sam has two children and both of them have severe reactions to a vaccine, requiring hospitalization to survive. Then s/he has a third child. Should Sam be forced to vaccinate that child knowing that the odds of a bad reaction are high?

Why is it so hard for people to understand herd immunity?

[Blazedtown]

Let's say that Sam has two children and both of them have severe reactions to a vaccine, requiring hospitalization to survive. Then s/he has a third child. Should Sam be forced to vaccinate that child knowing that the odds of a bad reaction are high?

Why is it so hard for people to understand herd immunity?

because science is evil and immoral

[Quelesh]

I don't oppose vaccines, and I think that the theory that vaccines represent a massive conspiracy to, er, make people stupid, or something, is just silly and without convincing evidence. There's also no convincing evidence for this "vaccines cause autism" business.

That said, I don't think that anyone should be held down and vaccinated against their will, nor do I think that anti-vaccine advocates should be imprisoned for their speech, as the OP implies.

The need of the many outweighs the wants of the one.

No, I don't think it does. I don't think I have the right to hold someone down and inject something into them against their will, even if doing so would be beneficial to me.

Also, underage people aren't entitled to take decisions for themselves

I disagree with this too. The ability to make decisions is not dependent upon the number of revolutions about the Sun the Earth has made since one's birth.

People should be able to make whatever insane medical choices for themselves that they want, but they do not own their children, if a vaccination could save a child's life then the state has the responsibility to make sure that child gets what it needs.

You are absolutely right that parents do not own their children; however, the State does not own children either.

I have to laugh at the extremists. There's the right wing religious wacko who thinks that the Earth is only 6-7000 years old, was created in 7 days and people coexisted with dinosaurs and who also thinks that global climate change is a left-wing conspiracy to destroy his/her livelihood - but they seem to have no problem with vaccines and GMOs.

Then there's the left-wing, eco-nut who thinks the world and all our children will be destroyed by vaccines and GMOs (yes, I know Monsanto is evil, but GMOs? Not necessarily - given appropriate regulation) - but they accept evolution, the big bang theory and understand the implications of climate change.

So we have anti-science wingdoodles on both sides. Cognitive dissonance, anyone?

I like this post.

Viruses mutate. Really, you take your vitamins, have good nutrition and a sound mind, you're not going to succumb. I think many people have be bought into this paranoid delusion that no vaccination means death. All for corporate profits.

I prefer George Carlin's take on immunology:

What we have now is a completely neurotic population obsessed with security, and safety, and crime, and drugs, and cleanliness, and hygiene, and germs. There's another thing, germs. Where did this sudden fear of germs come from in this country? Have you noticed this? The media, constantly running stories about all the latest infections – salmonella, E. coli, Hanta virus, bird flu – and Americans, they panic easily so now everybody's running around, scrubbing this and spraying that and overcooking their food and repeatedly washing their hands, trying to avoid all contact with germs.

It's ridiculous and it goes to ridiculous lengths. In prisons, before they give you a lethal injection, they swab your arm with alcohol! It's true! Yeah! Well, they don't want you to get an infection! And you could see their point; wouldn't want some guy to go to hell and be sick! It would take a lot of the sportsmanship out of the whole execution. Fear of germs, why these fuckin' pussies!

You can't even get a decent hamburger anymore! They cook the shit out of everything now cause everybody's afraid of food poisoning! Hey, where's your sense of adventure? Take a fucking chance will you? You know how many people die in this country from food poisoning every year? 9000, that's all; it's a minor risk! Take a fuckin' chance, bunch of goddamn pussies!

Besides, what do you think you have an immune system for? It's for killing germs! But it needs practice! It needs germs to practice on. So listen! If you kill all the germs around you, and live a completely sterile life, then when germs do come along, you're not gonna be prepared. And never mind ordinary germs, what are you gonna do when some super virus comes along that turns your vital organs into liquid shit? I'll tell you what you're gonna do, you're gonna get sick, you're gonna die, and you're gonna deserve it cause you're fucking weak and you got a fucking weak immune system!

Let me tell you a true story about immunization, okay? When I was a little boy in New York City in the 1940s, we swam in the Hudson River, and it was filled with raw sewage, okay? We swam in raw sewage! You know, to cool off! And at that time, the big fear was polio; thousands of kids died from polio every year but you know something? In my neighborhood, no one ever got polio! No one! Ever! You know why? Cause we swam in raw sewage! It strengthened our immune systems! The polio never had a prayer; we were tempered in raw shit!

So personally, I never take any special precautions against germs. I don't shy away from people that sneeze and cough, I don't wipe off the telephone, I don't cover the toilet seat, and if I drop food on the floor, I pick it up and eat it! Yes I do. Even if I'm at a sidewalk cafe! In Calcutta! The poor section! On New Year's morning during a soccer riot!

And you know something? In spite of all that so-called risky behavior, I never get infections. I don't get 'em! I don't get colds, I don't get flu, I don't get headaches, I don't get upset stomach, you know why? Cause I got a good strong immune system and it gets a lot of practice.

My immune system is equipped with the biological equivalent of fully automatic military assault rifles with night vision and laser scopes, and we have recently acquired phosphorous grenades, cluster bombs, and anti-personnel fragmentation mines. So when my white blood cells are on patrol reconnoitering my blood stream seeking out strangers and other undesirables, if they see any, ANY suspicious looking germs of any kind, they don't fuck around! They whip out their weapons; they wax the motherfucker and deposit the unlucky fellow directly into my colon! Into my colon! There's no nonsense, there's no Miranda warning, there's none of that "three strikes and you're out" shit, first defense, BAM, into the colon you go!

And speaking of my colon, I want you to know I don't automatically wash my hands every time I go to the bathroom okay? Can you deal with that? Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. You know when I wash my hands? When I shit on them! That's the only time. And you know how often that happens? Tops, TOPS, 2, 3 times a week tops! Maybe a little more frequently over the holidays, you know what I mean?

And I'll tell you something else my well-scrubbed friends, you don't need to always need to shower every day, did you know that? It's overkill. Unless you work out, or work outdoors, or for some reason come in intimate contact with huge amounts of filth and garbage every day, you don't always need to shower. All you really need to do is to wash the four key areas; armpits, asshole, crotch, and teeth. Got that? Armpits, asshole, crotch, and teeth. In fact, you can save yourself a whole lot of time if you simply use the same brush on all four areas!

[Avenio]

I prefer George Carlin's take on immunology:

What we have now is a completely neurotic population obsessed with security, and safety, and crime, and drugs, and cleanliness, and hygiene, and germs. There's another thing, germs. Where did this sudden fear of germs come from in this country? Have you noticed this? The media, constantly running stories about all the latest infections – salmonella, E. coli, Hanta virus, bird flu – and Americans, they panic easily so now everybody's running around, scrubbing this and spraying that and overcooking their food and repeatedly washing their hands, trying to avoid all contact with germs.

It's ridiculous and it goes to ridiculous lengths. In prisons, before they give you a lethal injection, they swab your arm with alcohol! It's true! Yeah! Well, they don't want you to get an infection! And you could see their point; wouldn't want some guy to go to hell and be sick! It would take a lot of the sportsmanship out of the whole execution. Fear of germs, why these fuckin' pussies!

You can't even get a decent hamburger anymore! They cook the shit out of everything now cause everybody's afraid of food poisoning! Hey, where's your sense of adventure? Take a fucking chance will you? You know how many people die in this country from food poisoning every year? 9000, that's all; it's a minor risk! Take a fuckin' chance, bunch of goddamn pussies!

Besides, what do you think you have an immune system for? It's for killing germs! But it needs practice! It needs germs to practice on. So listen! If you kill all the germs around you, and live a completely sterile life, then when germs do come along, you're not gonna be prepared. And never mind ordinary germs, what are you gonna do when some super virus comes along that turns your vital organs into liquid shit? I'll tell you what you're gonna do, you're gonna get sick, you're gonna die, and you're gonna deserve it cause you're fucking weak and you got a fucking weak immune system!

Let me tell you a true story about immunization, okay? When I was a little boy in New York City in the 1940s, we swam in the Hudson River, and it was filled with raw sewage, okay? We swam in raw sewage! You know, to cool off! And at that time, the big fear was polio; thousands of kids died from polio every year but you know something? In my neighborhood, no one ever got polio! No one! Ever! You know why? Cause we swam in raw sewage! It strengthened our immune systems! The polio never had a prayer; we were tempered in raw shit!

So personally, I never take any special precautions against germs. I don't shy away from people that sneeze and cough, I don't wipe off the telephone, I don't cover the toilet seat, and if I drop food on the floor, I pick it up and eat it! Yes I do. Even if I'm at a sidewalk cafe! In Calcutta! The poor section! On New Year's morning during a soccer riot!

And you know something? In spite of all that so-called risky behavior, I never get infections. I don't get 'em! I don't get colds, I don't get flu, I don't get headaches, I don't get upset stomach, you know why? Cause I got a good strong immune system and it gets a lot of practice.

My immune system is equipped with the biological equivalent of fully automatic military assault rifles with night vision and laser scopes, and we have recently acquired phosphorous grenades, cluster bombs, and anti-personnel fragmentation mines. So when my white blood cells are on patrol reconnoitering my blood stream seeking out strangers and other undesirables, if they see any, ANY suspicious looking germs of any kind, they don't fuck around! They whip out their weapons; they wax the motherfucker and deposit the unlucky fellow directly into my colon! Into my colon! There's no nonsense, there's no Miranda warning, there's none of that "three strikes and you're out" shit, first defense, BAM, into the colon you go!

And speaking of my colon, I want you to know I don't automatically wash my hands every time I go to the bathroom okay? Can you deal with that? Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. You know when I wash my hands? When I shit on them! That's the only time. And you know how often that happens? Tops, TOPS, 2, 3 times a week tops! Maybe a little more frequently over the holidays, you know what I mean?

And I'll tell you something else my well-scrubbed friends, you don't need to always need to shower every day, did you know that? It's overkill. Unless you work out, or work outdoors, or for some reason come in intimate contact with huge amounts of filth and garbage every day, you don't always need to shower. All you really need to do is to wash the four key areas; armpits, asshole, crotch, and teeth. Got that? Armpits, asshole, crotch, and teeth. In fact, you can save yourself a whole lot of time if you simply use the same brush on all four areas!

I'll never understand why people prefer uninformed whinging to real science.

[Galloism]

I prefer George Carlin's take on immunology:

What we have now is a completely neurotic population obsessed with security, and safety, and crime, and drugs, and cleanliness, and hygiene, and germs. There's another thing, germs. Where did this sudden fear of germs come from in this country? Have you noticed this? The media, constantly running stories about all the latest infections – salmonella, E. coli, Hanta virus, bird flu – and Americans, they panic easily so now everybody's running around, scrubbing this and spraying that and overcooking their food and repeatedly washing their hands, trying to avoid all contact with germs.

It's ridiculous and it goes to ridiculous lengths. In prisons, before they give you a lethal injection, they swab your arm with alcohol! It's true! Yeah! Well, they don't want you to get an infection! And you could see their point; wouldn't want some guy to go to hell and be sick! It would take a lot of the sportsmanship out of the whole execution. Fear of germs, why these fuckin' pussies!

You can't even get a decent hamburger anymore! They cook the shit out of everything now cause everybody's afraid of food poisoning! Hey, where's your sense of adventure? Take a fucking chance will you? You know how many people die in this country from food poisoning every year? 9000, that's all; it's a minor risk! Take a fuckin' chance, bunch of goddamn pussies!

Besides, what do you think you have an immune system for? It's for killing germs! But it needs practice! It needs germs to practice on. So listen! If you kill all the germs around you, and live a completely sterile life, then when germs do come along, you're not gonna be prepared. And never mind ordinary germs, what are you gonna do when some super virus comes along that turns your vital organs into liquid shit? I'll tell you what you're gonna do, you're gonna get sick, you're gonna die, and you're gonna deserve it cause you're fucking weak and you got a fucking weak immune system!

Let me tell you a true story about immunization, okay? When I was a little boy in New York City in the 1940s, we swam in the Hudson River, and it was filled with raw sewage, okay? We swam in raw sewage! You know, to cool off! And at that time, the big fear was polio; thousands of kids died from polio every year but you know something? In my neighborhood, no one ever got polio! No one! Ever! You know why? Cause we swam in raw sewage! It strengthened our immune systems! The polio never had a prayer; we were tempered in raw shit!

So personally, I never take any special precautions against germs. I don't shy away from people that sneeze and cough, I don't wipe off the telephone, I don't cover the toilet seat, and if I drop food on the floor, I pick it up and eat it! Yes I do. Even if I'm at a sidewalk cafe! In Calcutta! The poor section! On New Year's morning during a soccer riot!

And you know something? In spite of all that so-called risky behavior, I never get infections. I don't get 'em! I don't get colds, I don't get flu, I don't get headaches, I don't get upset stomach, you know why? Cause I got a good strong immune system and it gets a lot of practice.

My immune system is equipped with the biological equivalent of fully automatic military assault rifles with night vision and laser scopes, and we have recently acquired phosphorous grenades, cluster bombs, and anti-personnel fragmentation mines. So when my white blood cells are on patrol reconnoitering my blood stream seeking out strangers and other undesirables, if they see any, ANY suspicious looking germs of any kind, they don't fuck around! They whip out their weapons; they wax the motherfucker and deposit the unlucky fellow directly into my colon! Into my colon! There's no nonsense, there's no Miranda warning, there's none of that "three strikes and you're out" shit, first defense, BAM, into the colon you go!

And speaking of my colon, I want you to know I don't automatically wash my hands every time I go to the bathroom okay? Can you deal with that? Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. You know when I wash my hands? When I shit on them! That's the only time. And you know how often that happens? Tops, TOPS, 2, 3 times a week tops! Maybe a little more frequently over the holidays, you know what I mean?

And I'll tell you something else my well-scrubbed friends, you don't need to always need to shower every day, did you know that? It's overkill. Unless you work out, or work outdoors, or for some reason come in intimate contact with huge amounts of filth and garbage every day, you don't always need to shower. All you really need to do is to wash the four key areas; armpits, asshole, crotch, and teeth. Got that? Armpits, asshole, crotch, and teeth. In fact, you can save yourself a whole lot of time if you simply use the same brush on all four areas!

I'll never understand why people prefer uninformed whinging to real science.

I mean, he's exaggerating and all, but there's something to that.

There have been a few news pieces over the last few years that people who are compulsively cleaning everything with antibacterial cleansers are far more likely to get seriously ill from disease, for just that reason.

[Avenio]

I mean, he's exaggerating and all, but there's something to that.

There have been a few news pieces over the last few years that people who are compulsively cleaning everything with antibacterial cleansers are far more likely to get seriously ill from disease, for just that reason.

A kernel of truth in a lengthy whinge doesn't make it not whinge-y. There's enough painful misconceptions and bad information in there to drown out that particular piece of wisdom.

If that makes sense.

[Wikkiwallana]

Vaccines should be optional. Forcing someone to undergo a medical procedure, however limited is a breach of the rights of that person.

You making me deathly ill because you were feeling petulant is an even bigger violation of my rights.

[Galloism]

I mean, he's exaggerating and all, but there's something to that.

There have been a few news pieces over the last few years that people who are compulsively cleaning everything with antibacterial cleansers are far more likely to get seriously ill from disease, for just that reason.

A kernel of truth in a lengthy whinge doesn't make it not whinge-y. There's enough painful misconceptions and bad information in there to drown out that particular piece of wisdom.

If that makes sense.

He was a comedian. He's supposed to be funny and stretch the truth for humor, and throw in bizarre things for a laugh.

That was his job.

[Wikkiwallana]

There should be a choice in receiving a vaccine. Forcing a person to take one would be authoritarian and draconian.

Only if both of those words meant something vastly different from their real definitions.

[Geilinor]

Considering 99 or so % of the population is vaccinated, what are you thinking would spread it to you?

Viruses mutate. Really, you take your vitamins, have good nutrition and a sound mind, you're not going to succumb. I think many people have be bought into this paranoid delusion that no vaccination means death. All for corporate profits.

Do you need the chart again? Dipthteria, polio, smallpox... Eliminated thanks to vaccines. Measles, tetanus, rubella...Almost eradicated.

[Avenio]

He was a comedian. He's supposed to be funny and stretch the truth for humor, and throw in bizarre things for a laugh.

That was his job.

My own personal preferences in comedy aside, that doesn't make him a reputable source in immunology like Quelesh seems to think he is - and that was my point.

[Geilinor]

Forcing vaccines is the same thing as sending all HIV carriers to islands.

Vaccines are like forced relocation and quarantine? Are you delusional?

[Thafoo]

Considering 99 or so % of the population is vaccinated, what are you thinking would spread it to you?

Viruses mutate. Really, you take your vitamins, have good nutrition and a sound mind, you're not going to succumb. I think many people have be bought into this paranoid delusion that no vaccination means death. All for corporate profits.

...Are you aware that many vaccines, including the Polio and Rubella vaccines, are not patented?

Also, it doesn't mean death, it means lowering the herd immunity and thus providing the risk of a large outbreak, such as the 2011 outbreak of Pertussis...

[Saruhan]

Viruses mutate. Really, you take your vitamins, have good nutrition and a sound mind, you're not going to succumb. I think many people have be bought into this paranoid delusion that no vaccination means death. All for corporate profits.

Do you need the chart again? Dipthteria, polio, smallpox... Eliminated thanks to vaccines. Measles, tetanus, rubella...Almost eradicated.

That graph is missing Smallpox, which I think would be a much better show

[Wikkiwallana]

Forcing vaccines is the same thing as sending all HIV carriers to islands.

Not even remotely.

With all the major funding/profit these big pharma companies make with vaccines, I question the validity of much of this research.

Why? Do you not understand the peer review process?

Furthermore, the germs them inoculate you with are synthetic, not natural.

And that's just completely made up.

[Pope Joan]

Sure there should be a choice.

It's a free country, supposedly.

Trust the people.

There is a word for people who want to force others to do what's supposedly good for them. "Puritan". Today's Puritans are secular but the personality has remained consistent.

[Thafoo]

Do you need the chart again? (Image) Dipthteria, polio, smallpox... Eliminated thanks to vaccines. Measles, tetanus, rubella...Almost eradicated.

That graph is missing Smallpox, which I think would be a much better show

Smallpox is third to the bottom...

[Thafoo]

Sure there should be a choice.

It's a free country, supposedly.

Trust the people.

There is a word for people who want to force others to do what's supposedly good for them. "Puritan". Today's Puritans are secular but the personality has remained consistent.

Refusing to get vaccinated puts everyone else at risk by lowering the herd immunity...

[Saruhan]

That graph is missing Smallpox, which I think would be a much better show

Smallpox is third to the bottom...

Well never fucking mind then.

[Wikkiwallana]

Let's say that Sam has two children and both of them have severe reactions to a vaccine, requiring hospitalization to survive. Then s/he has a third child. Should Sam be forced to vaccinate that child knowing that the odds of a bad reaction are high?

What if the first child was okay but the second almost died? Is that sufficient justification for opting out for child #3? Where do we draw the lines?

See, that would be a lot more compelling if we didn't have the ability to safely test people for allergies.