Abortion is Murder

[Land of Tob]

So I'd have no right to control your finger if you want to press on the trigger? Because basically - it's the same thing.

Analogy fail.

Why fail?

[Ovisterra]

I wasn't aware of such an offence.

Care to source it?

No, I was just going by what I was told in the thread (which is that it was a thing in the US). If it doesn't exist, it absolutely should.

T'would make sense.

Oh dear God this thread again.

I don't believe we've had this thread.

You didn't read any of it, did you?

[Nadkor]

Well, I mean, given that "murder" is a legal term with an actual definition and that abortion falls outside that definition I'm going to go ahead and say that your stance is wrong.

You might not like abortion. You might want it to be murder.

But abortion is not murder.

(Obviously this isn't the case everywhere, but I'm talking about Cosara's location)

Well, abortion most certainly CAN be murder. What the defendant did cause is unambiguously an abortion. And it would seem, causing an abortion in an unwilling woman constitutes murder under the federal statute.

Well, yeah, but not quite the kind of abortion that I suspect Cosara was talking about.

[Ovisterra]

Analogy fail.

Why fail?

Because it's about as intellectually dishonest as comparisons get.

You're comparing apples to aircraft carriers.

[Neo Art]

OK. So I think I see where this argument is going. All those who believe this is not murder because murder is defined as the "unlawful killing of a person" and the Supreme Court determined in Roe v. Wade that a fetus is not a person, and therefore this can not be murder, raise your hands.

OK. Now put your hands down.

You're all wrong.

[Ashmoria]

yes

because if it is murder for HIM to give her an abortion drug at 6 weeks why is it then ok for HER to willingly take the same drug in order to end the pregnancy?

isn't murder an offense only against the person who dies? in both scenarios the same "person" dies.

OK, I don't agree with the "Abortion is murder" thing, I don't think it is,
But preventing a woman from having a child by making her miscarry when she wants to should count as a crime, but against the woman, not the thing that could have become a person.

I agree. and I agree with the idea that if the fetus is viable it should count as murder.

[Mavorpen]

Of course this case is murder.

[Neo Art]

Well, abortion most certainly CAN be murder. What the defendant did cause is unambiguously an abortion. And it would seem, causing an abortion in an unwilling woman constitutes murder under the federal statute.

Well, yeah, but not quite the kind of abortion that I suspect Cosara was talking about.

Yes, but I have found little reason to constrain my vocabulary for the benefit of children on the internet.

[Land of Tob]

OK. So I think I see where this argument is going. All those who believe this is not murder because murder is defined as the "unlawful killing of a person" and the Supreme Court determined in Roe v. Wade that a fetus is not a person, and therefore this can not be murder, raise your hands.

OK. Now put your hands down.

You're all wrong.

Glad your opinion is correct for once.

[Starkiller101]

its is murder

[Nadkor]

Analogy fail.

Why fail?

Because it's bullshit.

[Ashmoria]

OK. So I think I see where this argument is going. All those who believe this is not murder because murder is defined as the "unlawful killing of a person" and the Supreme Court determined in Roe v. Wade that a fetus is not a person, and therefore this can not be murder, raise your hands.

OK. Now put your hands down.

You're all wrong.

no we're not.

it doesn't matter what the federal statute is. no one is arguing anything about the details of the law. we aren't lawyers.

[Land of Tob]

Why fail?

Because it's bullshit.

If you say so.

[Cosara]

If it's a human life, it is murder if she does so.

Only if it's illegal.

Which it's not, so you're objectively wrong.

The legality of abortion is no concern to my stance on it.

[Mavorpen]

OK. So I think I see where this argument is going. All those who believe this is not murder because murder is defined as the "unlawful killing of a person" and the Supreme Court determined in Roe v. Wade that a fetus is not a person, and therefore this can not be murder, raise your hands.

OK. Now put your hands down.

You're all wrong.

no we're not.

it doesn't matter what the federal statute is. no one is arguing anything about the details of the law. we aren't lawyers.

...The point is that under federal statute, this is murder.

I'm not sure how disagreeing with this doesn't mean you're wrong.

[Meinkraft]

OK, I don't agree with the "Abortion is murder" thing, I don't think it is,
But preventing a woman from having a child by making her miscarry when she wants to should count as a crime, but against the woman, not the thing that could have become a person.

I agree. and I agree with the idea that if the fetus is viable it should count as murder.

Fetus is viable after eight months. Unfortunately, we didn't get enough info

[The Steel Magnolia]

Why wouldn't it be murder?

Why would it be? It wasn't a person.

Biased poll is biased.

You're entitled to your opinion, but it's a shame the truth makes you uncomfortable.

....

I'm pro-choice.

It's there. Right in my signature.

You, however, are clearly not, because the central tenet of being pro-choice is about the fucking choice. Not having a decision forced upon you by anyone. And any attempt to force such a decision must be prohibited.

[Nadkor]

OK. So I think I see where this argument is going. All those who believe this is not murder because murder is defined as the "unlawful killing of a person" and the Supreme Court determined in Roe v. Wade that a fetus is not a person, and therefore this can not be murder, raise your hands.

OK. Now put your hands down.

You're all wrong.

Not knowing anything about the US law on this, I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and guess that the relevant word here is "unlawful".

Cookie or no cookie?

[Jamzmania]

A fetus is just a child in early stages of development that will, unless something goes horribly wrong (like, say, an abortion), be born and grow up to be an adult. Killing a fetus is no different than killing a newborn child because it cries too much and you don't want to hear it anymore.

[Mavorpen]

Only if it's illegal.

Which it's not, so you're objectively wrong.

The legality of abortion is no concern to my stance on it.

Which isn't the point. The point is that you need to actually use words you understand.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

Only if it's illegal.

Which it's not, so you're objectively wrong.

The legality of abortion is no concern to my stance on it.

If it's not illegal, it's not murder.

It's kind of in the basic definition.

"Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human,"

Hence, i'mma guess that because this is actually unlawful, it can be considered murder.

[Souseiseki]

Right but if there's a thing on the statute books that is already "the unwanted termination of a pregnancy" as a crime, why not use that rather than murder, given that it actually fits the definition?

http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/hea ... -laws.aspx

well, actually, in this case, the definition of murder...

[Mavorpen]

A fetus is just a child in early stages of development that will, unless something goes horribly wrong (like, say, an abortion), be born and grow up to be an adult. Killing a fetus is no different than killing a newborn child because it cries too much and you don't want to hear it anymore.

Stop it. This isn't an "IS ABORTION MURDER!?!?!?!1111?!" thread, despite how utterly stupid the title is.

[Nadkor]

Well, yeah, but not quite the kind of abortion that I suspect Cosara was talking about.

Yes, but I have found little reason to constrain my vocabulary for the benefit of children on the internet.

Yeah, but getting into it fully was going to involve a whole thing and I couldn't really be bothered going any further than telling him that he's wrong, mostly, when it comes to what he's thinking of.

[Neo Art]

OK. So I think I see where this argument is going. All those who believe this is not murder because murder is defined as the "unlawful killing of a person" and the Supreme Court determined in Roe v. Wade that a fetus is not a person, and therefore this can not be murder, raise your hands.

OK. Now put your hands down.

You're all wrong.

no we're not.

it doesn't matter what the federal statute is. no one is arguing anything about the details of the law. we aren't lawyers.

Of COURSE it matters what the federal statute is, for the purposes of whether this constitutes murder. Whether it should be murder is an entirely seperate matter all together. That's entirely subject to your opinion, but whether it meets the legal definition of murder is not a question of opinion, it's a question of fact. And more than one here has expressed the belief that it CAN NOT be murder because abortion is legal. This is clearly inaccurate.