Words and Gender: Does Gender Differentiation Matter?

[Individuality-ness]

Asking for people to use gender-neutral words = wanting to be of the opposite gender? SINCE WHEN?!

When you're 12 years old.

*sigh* God damn it people.

[Land of Tob]

You're an actress.
Do you want to be associated as a man? Because this is the impression I'm getting, since you have so many problems with female words.

Asking for people to use gender-neutral words = wanting to be of the opposite gender? SINCE WHEN?!

You refuse to be called an actress - why?! It's not sexist! Just because it says you are a woman? Shouldn't you be happy since you are so much defending your gender?

[Oppressorion]

Take a guess.

I'm Swiss, sorry.

Like Homophobia, or Islamophobia, but for transgender people. Or transsexual, whichever they prefer to go by these days. Not an actual phobia, but a politically-created nickname for conservatives opposing a particular sector of society.

[Haydenish People]

In German, one must differentiate between male and female students, teachers, and even nationalities (such as male and female Americans). And you call English sexist.

Before you call me an oppressive patriarch, I support equal rights for men and women. Women are just as skilled as men are in many lines of work (although there are few women in some), and I find it ridiculous that women get paid less for the same work. I do find that gender differentiation is mainly cultural. But, one thing in the OP I find odd is that women must "settle for a female version" of many titles. It's not settling. Being an actress does not make you any less than an actor. It simply means you are a female actor. It does not mean that you can never strive to be an actor, because you already are one.

Then why have a different word for the same thing?

It's mainly cultural. There's no rational reason for it. In my post, I was just saying that being an actress is not a demotion, or make you any less skilled.

[Euroslavia]

Also . . . a female can't aspire to be an actor in the same way a male can't aspire to be an actress, and an orange can't aspire to be Golden Delicious. It has nothing to do with equality at all.

Why not?

Okay, this is getting out of control. Either you have gone mad or you are a troll.

Perhaps you should be reminded of this:

Trollnaming: Attempting to shut down a thread or poster by labeling it/them a troll with no further discussion.

And on to this mess:

SMACK!

SMACK!

SMACK!
kind of

*** Warned for spamming/flamebaiting ***
If you can't actually contribute to the discussion, don't bother posting.

[Land of Tob]

I'm Swiss, sorry.

Like Homophobia, or Islamophobia, but for transgender people. Or transsexual, whichever they prefer to go by these days. Not an actual phobia, but a politically-created nickname for conservatives opposing a particular sector of society.

Ah, thanks.

[Individuality-ness]

You're an actress.
Do you want to be associated as a man? Because this is the impression I'm getting, since you have so many problems with female words.

Having directed a couple short films, all of the people are actors. Wonderful thing about theatre and film is that you can have a man become a female, or a woman become a male character. Actor is gender neutral (edit: And Nerv beat me to the punch). But then, these were tiny independent ventures and not Hollywood, so I have no idea of the cultural climate there.

From people I know who work in the acting industry, the proper term is "actor", regardless if the person's male and female or genderqueer.

[The Steel Magnolia]

True!

On the other hand, 40-50 odd years of psychiatric research tend to agree with me.

Indeed, all I need to do to prove it is by looking myself in the mirror.

But god no. Insisting on being known by my actual gender clearly makes me a Nazi.

For fuck's sake, grow the hell up.

I fail to see how it's any different from someone persuaded they're a member of different species, or what the fuck else.

And I might fail to see how the earth could possibly orbit the sun.

Doesn't make me any more right.

It's simple. Gender is determined by these little things called chromosomes, specifically one pair of them which can be either XX - female , XY - male, or a number of rare defects (XXY sterile males, X0 and so on and so on) .

Untrue.

While we don't know how to fix a person who is persuaded they are of the wrong gender, and hence, things like sexual reassignment surgery, and simply letting them roll with it are the best we can do, it changes nothing about the fact that two genders are the norm, and anything in between is simply an anomaly. And we use the norm as a rule for classifying things, not anomalies and exceptions.

You're actually inaccurate on... just about every level, as it happens.

Actually that's not true.

There are, more or less, three definitions of sex used in biology: genetic sex, gonadal sex, and phenotypic sex.

Genetic sex is the ~chromosomes~ one. In mammals, the Y chromosome normally contains a gene named SRY, which is the main trigger that causes a fetus to begin developing along a male pathway. Occasionally, due to random errors in the process of copying DNA, an SRY gene can fall off a Y chromosome or even jump over to an X chromosome: this is one of the ways you get people with XX chromosomes who develop physically as male, or people with XY chromosomes who develop physically as female. (There are other ways too, related to other genetic or environmental factors.) Now, the thing about genetic sex is that it's not actually used all that often by working biologists outside of the field of molecular genetics -- there's usually no point looking at chromosomes if what you're interested in is anatomy or biochemistry. So chromosomal sex is by no means the final word on whether we call an organism "male" or "female".

Gonadal sex is probably the one that gets used most often by biologists when they're identifying whether the unfortunate little critter they've just dissected is male or female: it's whether an animal has testes, ovaries, or something in between. While we don't yet have the technology to give trans women ovaries or trans men testes, long-term hormone therapy does render the birth gonads mostly non-functional, and of course they can also be surgically removed.

Phenotypic sex is the one that's of most interest to you and me in our daily lives. It refers to the development of sexually dimorphic characteristics, such as genital organs, and facial and body hair. It's mostly influenced by sex hormones, and there's a great deal that modern medicine can do to bring a trans person's sexual characteristics closer to their target sex than their birth sex. Phenotypic sex is just as biologically valid a definition of sex as the other two, and unless you're planning to either perform medical procedures on someone or have kids with them, it's the only one that's likely to have much relevance to you when you interact with other people.

Finally, we humans add an extra layer on top of all this, which we call gender. Gender includes all of the standards that are used in a society to differentiate men from women (and other genders, in cultures or subcultures that recognise more than two genders). Some of the characteristics by which people are categorised into one gender or another are related to phenotypic sex, but others are purely behavioural -- dress, grooming and so on. There are differences between gender expression and gender, but we won't get into that now.

So when it comes to how we decide whether to call someone a man or a woman, chromosomes are really a very small part of the story. After all, societies were categorising people into genders long before chromosomes were even discovered, and we easily discern whether people are men or women every day without it even occurring to us to look at their chromosomes first.

And second of all, transgender people actually number 1 in 150.

Also aha! I found that 1 in 200 number!

It turns out it depends on your definition. Lynn Conway estimated that due to the number of surgeries that happen each year, the number is at least 1 in 1,000. The National Union of Students here in the UK found that 1 in 200 identify as a gender other than that assigned at birth and another 1 in 200 prefer not to say. The Equality and Human Rights Commission found that 0.4% of people were non-binary 1% of people had thought about transition. The consensus estimate seems to be about 1-in-150.

[Mirage]

Again. Repeat that for a century, you'll wear down your tongue but it still won't be true.

Ok, how many here think sex and gender are same ? I am of the opinion that they aren't. Can i see a show of hands ?

[The Steel Magnolia]

I'm Swiss, sorry.

Like Homophobia, or Islamophobia, but for transgender people. Or transsexual, whichever they prefer to go by these days. Not an actual phobia, but a politically-created nickname for conservatives opposing a particular sector of society.

You were doing fine until the last line.

[Land of Tob]

Okay, this is getting out of control. Either you have gone mad or you are a troll.

Perhaps you should be reminded of this:

Trollnaming: Attempting to shut down a thread or poster by labeling it/them a troll with no further discussion.

And on to this mess:

SMACK!

SMACK!

SMACK!
kind of

*** Warned for spamming/flamebaiting ***
If you can't actually contribute to the discussion, don't bother posting.

Okay.. I am discussing here but okay. And is the "either" not allowed? Did not know that.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Absolutely and completely untrue. An actor is defined, quite literally, as a person who acts. Actor is, in fact, a gender neutral term. As is "singer", "painter", "writer", and a host of others.

Actor is not a gender neutral term , because it refers to men, as opposed to actress, which refers to women. In the same way man isn't a gender neutral term.
Singer, painter and writer are, AFAIK , gender neutral.

...


Actor is literally defined as a "person who acts". There's no gender attachment whatsoever.

[The Nihilistic view]

There we go, another example of an American that presumes the rest of the world has every technical gadget under the sun. Can i search up a topic of conversation whilst i am driving and on the phone?

Considering that smartphones have a huge market in Europe, it's not an unfair assumption. Don't be obtuse.

It is not a personal attack. It is totally relevant if you answer. You see according to the things you have said thus far we can extrapolate from them that one is sexist if one is more attracted to one sex over the other.

... wut?

Never assume anything. It is my first rule of life.

You know it makes sense. i have chosen one over the other. That is sexist.

[Land of Tob]

Actor is not a gender neutral term , because it refers to men, as opposed to actress, which refers to women. In the same way man isn't a gender neutral term.
Singer, painter and writer are, AFAIK , gender neutral.

...


Actor is literally defined as a "person who acts". There's no gender attachment whatsoever.

Why not use "actress" if it even describes it further?

[Euroslavia]

And why does saving two minutes matter so much when its existence reinforces a gender binary and is sexist?

We don't all have time to waste during the day making sure we are gender neutral like you my feminist unemployed keyboard warrior friend.

*** Warned for Flaming ***
Absolutely none of your response was necessary and contributed nothing to the debate. Knock it off.

[The Steel Magnolia]

...


Actor is literally defined as a "person who acts". There's no gender attachment whatsoever.

Why not use "actress" if it even describes it further?

I don't have a problem with actress.

Your points are utter drivel though.

[Immoren]

I hardly see any objection to them. It is simply being specific in language. I oppose any and all attempts to dumb down the English language.

I bet they said same about latin.

[Individuality-ness]

Asking for people to use gender-neutral words = wanting to be of the opposite gender? SINCE WHEN?!

You refuse to be called an actress - why?! It's not sexist! Just because it says you are a woman? Shouldn't you be happy since you are so much defending your gender?

Because my gender is irrelevant to whether I can act. That's why.

Then why have a different word for the same thing?

It's mainly cultural. There's no rational reason for it. In my post, I was just saying that being an actress is not a demotion, or make you any less skilled.

It does imply that you need to have a special word for yourself even though you're doing the same thing. I'm cool with people calling themselves that if they wish, but gender doesn't change my job description or my ability, so why does it change the word I get to use?

[Mirage]

Again. Repeat that for a century, you'll wear down your tongue but it still won't be true.

Looks like no volunteers.
Oh well, here you go :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction

[Land of Tob]

We don't all have time to waste during the day making sure we are gender neutral like you my feminist unemployed keyboard warrior friend.

*** Warned for Flaming ***
Absolutely none of your response was necessary and contributed nothing to the debate. Knock it off.

Implying that somebody has a characteristic, age, sex or anything like that is allowed? Just asking because I'm new here, and have noticed this.

[Individuality-ness]

Considering that smartphones have a huge market in Europe, it's not an unfair assumption. Don't be obtuse.


... wut?

Never assume anything. It is my first rule of life.

You know it makes sense. i have chosen one over the other. That is sexist.

Personal preferences in regards to who you're attracted to isn't sexism. Saying that females who do a certain job must use a special name to call themselves IS sexism.

[Central Slavia]

I'm Swiss, sorry.

Like Homophobia, or Islamophobia, but for transgender people. Or transsexual, whichever they prefer to go by these days. Not an actual phobia, but a politically-created nickname for conservatives opposing a particular sector of society.

I always liked how loaded the term is. Disapproving of someone doesn't mean being scared of them - at least my reaction to transsexuals is nowhere near my reaction to spiders and that's only me being mildly arachnophobic.

[Dazchan]

She and I are saying that for all intents and purposes in the professional world, gender-specific terminology is not important.

You mean... only for jobs and things of the like?

What if I'm shy around women and would like a male doctor for my examination?

I'm sure this has been addressed somewhere in the last 31 pages, but I have personal experience here. I Western Sydney, the vast majority of doctors are either of Indian or Asian descent. There is no way that I, as a white Australian with no background in their native languages, can tell who is male and who is female. So when I go to my local medical centre and need to see a same sex doctor, I approach the receptionist and say "I would like an appointment with a male doctor, please." The receptionist usually mows the gender of the doctors and can hook me up.

[Zweite Alaje]

NSG's stupidity never ceases to amaze me, people have managed to make a 30+ page thread about how grammatical gender and recognizing someone's gender or sex is sexist. Good job...

[Land of Tob]

You refuse to be called an actress - why?! It's not sexist! Just because it says you are a woman? Shouldn't you be happy since you are so much defending your gender?

Because my gender is irrelevant to whether I can act. That's why.

It's mainly cultural. There's no rational reason for it. In my post, I was just saying that being an actress is not a demotion, or make you any less skilled.

It does imply that you need to have a special word for yourself even though you're doing the same thing. I'm cool with people calling themselves that if they wish, but gender doesn't change my job description or my ability, so why does it change the word I get to use?

Because that's how many nouns work. Actress, as an example.