Are homosexuals really born that way?

[Mirage]

Source that claim.

The lack of source to contradict it is the only source you are going to get from me.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

Source that claim.

The lack of source to contradict it is the only source you are going to get from me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetic ... osexuality

"The Epigenome at a Glance." Genetic Science Learning Center. The University of Utah, 2013. Web. 10 Apr. 2013. <http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/epigenetics/>
Richards, Sabrina. "The Scientist." The Scientist. N.p., 1 Jan. 2013. Web. 13 Apr. 2013.
"National Geographic Explains the Biology of Homosexuality." YouTube. YouTube, 04 Feb. 2009. Web. 13 Apr. 2013.
Ruthenburg, A., C. Allis, and J. Wysocka. "Methylation of Lysine 4 on Histone H3: Intricacy of Writing and Reading a Single Epigenetic Mark." Molecular Cell 25.1 (2007): 15-30. Print.
Jablonka E and MJ Lamb (2010). Transgenerational epigenetic inheritance. In: M Pigliucci and GB Müller Evolution, the expanded synthesis
Friberg, Urban, Sergey Gavrilets, and William R. Rice. "Homosexuality as a Consequence of Epigenetically Canalized Sexual Development." The Quarterly Review of Biology 87.4 (2012): n. pag. Print.
"Gene Regulation May Explain How Homosexuality Flourishes." LiveScience.com. N.p., n.d. Web. 12 Apr. 2013.
"Gene Regulation May Explain How Homosexuality Flourishes." LiveScience.com. N.p., n.d. Web. 12 Apr. 2013.
Richards, Sabrina. "The Scientist." The Scientist. N.p., 1 Jan. 2013. Web.
Handunnetthi, Lahiru, Adam Handel, and Sreeram V. Ramagopalan. Contribution of Genetic, Epigenetic and Transcriptomic Differences to Twin Discordance in Multiple Sclerosis. Ebsco Host. Psyc Info, 2010. Web.
Friberg, Urban, Sergey Gavrilets, and William R. Rice. "Homosexuality as a Consequence of Epigenetically Canalized Sexual Development." The Quarterly Review of Biology 87.4 (2012): n. pag. Online.
Brook, Charles, Gerard S. Conway, and Melissa Hines. "Androgen and Psychosexual Development: Core Gender Identity, Sexual Orientation, and Recalled Childhood Gender Role Behavior in Women and Men with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH)." Journal of Sex Research 41.1 (2004): 75-81. Online
Rice, William, and Urban Friberg. "Study Finds Epigenetics, Not Genetics, Underlies Homosexuality."

[Mirage]

So one person on the Internet's opinion now outweighs scientific research, because they agree with you and the research doesn't.

No, because the scientific research also shows the same thing. Speculations and theories, not facts.

Still lying?

I get the feeling you're going to ignore this.[/quote]

I don't see anything other than your usual "omg lies"

[Mavorpen]

Find one peer reviewed source that states choice is a factor.

We don't have enough evidence to say anything with enough certainty. It's all speculative, and choice may or may not be a factor in several cases.

Considering the claim isn't, "we have determined with absolute certainty that choice is not possibly a factor" this is both a straw man and gross misunderstanding of science.

[Russadonia]

I have an idea. Go actually talk to some gays and ask them what they think. In fact, live among them for a bit. Participant-Observation is really the best tool in this matter since you ignore their other sources.

You'd definitely learn soon enough.

One of my best friends is one. We met about 5 years ago.

And you still think choice is a factor?

[Mirage]

The lack of source to contradict it is the only source you are going to get from me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetic ... osexuality

My point still stands.

[Neo Art]

I have an idea. Go actually talk to some gays and ask them what they think. In fact, live among them for a bit. Participant-Observation is really the best tool in this matter since you ignore their other sources.

You'd definitely learn soon enough.

One of my best friends is one. We met about 5 years ago.

So that would be when you were, I'm guessing....9?

[Mavorpen]

I don't see anything other than your usual "omg lies"

We know, you have trouble reading things. I'll post it again for you.

I don't have to. I only said it is what i "believe" it to be, not that that is what it is. You are the one making the claim here.

Yes, you are right. The exact cause is unclear and choice has not been taken out as a possibility or factor and hence i said that could be a factor or even the cause.

Still lying?

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetic ... osexuality

My point still stands.

No it fucking doesn't, because there are sources which contradict the nonsense you're spouting.

From the article:

"The Epigenome at a Glance." Genetic Science Learning Center. The University of Utah, 2013. Web. 10 Apr. 2013. <http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/epigenetics/>
Richards, Sabrina. "The Scientist." The Scientist. N.p., 1 Jan. 2013. Web. 13 Apr. 2013.
"National Geographic Explains the Biology of Homosexuality." YouTube. YouTube, 04 Feb. 2009. Web. 13 Apr. 2013.
Ruthenburg, A., C. Allis, and J. Wysocka. "Methylation of Lysine 4 on Histone H3: Intricacy of Writing and Reading a Single Epigenetic Mark." Molecular Cell 25.1 (2007): 15-30. Print.
Jablonka E and MJ Lamb (2010). Transgenerational epigenetic inheritance. In: M Pigliucci and GB Müller Evolution, the expanded synthesis
Friberg, Urban, Sergey Gavrilets, and William R. Rice. "Homosexuality as a Consequence of Epigenetically Canalized Sexual Development." The Quarterly Review of Biology 87.4 (2012): n. pag. Print.
"Gene Regulation May Explain How Homosexuality Flourishes." LiveScience.com. N.p., n.d. Web. 12 Apr. 2013.
"Gene Regulation May Explain How Homosexuality Flourishes." LiveScience.com. N.p., n.d. Web. 12 Apr. 2013.
Richards, Sabrina. "The Scientist." The Scientist. N.p., 1 Jan. 2013. Web.
Handunnetthi, Lahiru, Adam Handel, and Sreeram V. Ramagopalan. Contribution of Genetic, Epigenetic and Transcriptomic Differences to Twin Discordance in Multiple Sclerosis. Ebsco Host. Psyc Info, 2010. Web.
Friberg, Urban, Sergey Gavrilets, and William R. Rice. "Homosexuality as a Consequence of Epigenetically Canalized Sexual Development." The Quarterly Review of Biology 87.4 (2012): n. pag. Online.
Brook, Charles, Gerard S. Conway, and Melissa Hines. "Androgen and Psychosexual Development: Core Gender Identity, Sexual Orientation, and Recalled Childhood Gender Role Behavior in Women and Men with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH)." Journal of Sex Research 41.1 (2004): 75-81. Online
Rice, William, and Urban Friberg. "Study Finds Epigenetics, Not Genetics, Underlies Homosexuality."

[Mirage]

And you still think choice is a factor?

Yes.

So that would be when you were, I'm guessing....9?

I will be 22 this year. Do the math.

[Esternial]

So one person on the Internet's opinion now outweighs scientific research, because they agree with you and the research doesn't.

I don't get that either.

I won't deny that (epi)genetics aren't the biggest factor involved. It's mentioned over and over that it's the primary influencing factor.

However, this doesn't rule out choice can't be a secondary factor that - while not exacting as much influence as the primary factor(s) - might be 'responsible' for a small percentage of homosexuals. Then again, if we want to bring up choice as a factor, we should also ask ourselves what 'choice' is. Your choice might as well be influenced by your brain structure and how it is programmed during your development within the womb.

Would this still constitute choice? Who knows? In essence, all the choices we make later in life are (partly) determined before we even leave the womb.

[Algonquin Ascendancy]

One of my best friends is one. We met about 5 years ago.

So that would be when you were, I'm guessing....9?

I'd have gone with 8...

[Mirage]

...

You honestly think i am going to bother reading all that. That wiki link doesn't contradict it. If you find something that does, link it and if it is a really long one a quote from it so that i can find out where. Otherwise it might be easier to just say :

Here is my proof :

www.google.com

[Neo Art]

I will be 22 this year. Do the math.

I mean, dreams are good and all, but come on, do you really expect me to believe that?

[Mirage]

I will be 22 this year. Do the math.

I mean, dreams are good and all, but come on, do you really expect me to believe that?

Then don't. Simple.

[Russadonia]

I can't work under these conditions.

[Ifreann]

...

You honestly think i am going to bother reading all that. That wiki link doesn't contradict it. If you find something that does, link it and if it is a really long one a quote from it so that i can find out where. Otherwise it might be easier to just say :

Here is my proof :

http://www.google.com

Oh lawd, you got him here!

[Neo Art]

I mean, dreams are good and all, but come on, do you really expect me to believe that?

Then don't. Simple.

....I wasn't gonna. Especially when you try to make an argument by linking to google.

Fucking pathetic.

[Mavorpen]

...

You honestly think i am going to bother reading all that. That wiki link doesn't contradict it. If you find something that does, link it and if it is a really long one a quote from it so that i can find out where. Otherwise it might be easier to just say :

Here is my proof :

http://www.google.com

Allow me to translate this childish babble for the adults in the room.

"waaah! I actually have to read!?! Just spoonfeed me everything so I can pretend that I understand it and reject it immediately anyway!"

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

...

You honestly think i am going to bother reading all that.

It's be nice to see some intellectual honesty.

That wiki link doesn't contradict it. If you find something that does, link it and if it is a really long one a quote from it so that i can find out where. Otherwise it might be easier to just say :

"The researchers found that stronger than average epi-marks, epigenomes that are wrapped tightly around the DNA sequence, convert sexual preference in individuals without altering genitalia or sexual identity"

"This research gives support to the hypothesis that homosexuality stems from the under expression of certain genes on the DNA sequence involved with sexual preferences."

It's in the introductory paragraph of the Wiki article.

Making claims about a source's content without having read the source is A Bad Idea.

Here is my proof :

http://www.google.com

So what you're saying is that you're unwilling to accept the word of scientists, you're unwilling to read short papers, you're unwilling to do anything but skim, and the fact that there's a long list of scientific sources at the bottom of the Wiki article means nothing to you, and all this is because you don't want your beliefs to be challenged with facts.

[Herrebrugh]

This thread gives me a headache

[Anachronous Rex]

I will be 22 this year. Do the math.

I mean, dreams are good and all, but come on, do you really expect me to believe that?

There's a terrible sort of irony to the, "I'm in my 20s" claims.

Presumably the people who make them think that it lends a sort of credibility to their person. When, in fact, it just makes them seem sort of especially sad.

[Mavorpen]

I mean, dreams are good and all, but come on, do you really expect me to believe that?

There's a terrible sort of irony to the, "I'm in my 20s" claims.

Presumably the people who make them think that it lends a sort of credibility to their person. When, in fact, it just makes them seem sort of especially sad.

It's like watching Kent Hovind brag, "I have a PhD!" when he obtained it from a non accredited shack.

[Mirage]

"The researchers found that stronger than average epi-marks, epigenomes that are wrapped tightly around the DNA sequence, convert sexual preference in individuals without altering genitalia or sexual identity"

"This research gives support to the hypothesis that homosexuality stems from the under expression of certain genes on the DNA sequence involved with sexual preferences."

That doesn't mean that that alone causes it. Also i am interested in learning a bit more about the actual research. Can you direct me to a detailed version. (See, now things like this, i like to read in detail)

[Esternial]

This thread gives me a headache

I know how you feel.

I tried giving my two cents but schooling and ridiculing the infidel takes priority.