Anti-Zionism And Anti-Semitism

[Czardas]

For everyone discussing this intelligently
http://www.economicthought.net/2009/07/ ... ng-battle/
The article on question was written by a Nationstater, it is intelligent, thought out and decidedly realistic in its view--

The only perfect solution would be the complete dissolution of the state. Large government is doomed to failure because of ideological differences, ingrained paranoia and continued distrust of one another. Furthermore, only an end to government could return prosperity to Palestine in the short run. A lack of higher authority with the ability to coerce its citizens into disadvantageous decisions would lead to the restoration of private property rights for all entrepreneurs alike, leading to a higher degree of investment. Fruitful private enterprise would offer impoverished Palestinian workers a much needed opportunity to earn to bring food to their families’ tables. The lack of a state would also eliminate the danger of racially motivated segregation and murder on a wide scale, making fears of a second holocaust or of continued Israeli oppression irrelevant. It would solve the problem of out of control government spending and the crowding out of the private sector. A return to wealth would make conflict of any type undesirable.

I think I'll let that speak for itself.

[Dododecapod]

Anti-Semitism is simply racial/religious hatred. Like all forms of hate, it can only be really combatted via education and improved cosmopolitanism of the populace.

Anti-Zionism is tilting at windmills. Israel exists, there are natives therof, the arguments against it's existence have ceased to matter.

Not exactly, one can be AntiZionist and Pro-Israel. Or at least not Anti-Israel.

Interesting. How do you differentiate the two?

[Kobrania]

For everyone discussing this intelligently
http://www.economicthought.net/2009/07/ ... ng-battle/
The article on question was written by a Nationstater, it is intelligent, thought out and decidedly realistic in its view--

The only perfect solution would be the complete dissolution of the state. Large government is doomed to failure because of ideological differences, ingrained paranoia and continued distrust of one another. Furthermore, only an end to government could return prosperity to Palestine in the short run. A lack of higher authority with the ability to coerce its citizens into disadvantageous decisions would lead to the restoration of private property rights for all entrepreneurs alike, leading to a higher degree of investment. Fruitful private enterprise would offer impoverished Palestinian workers a much needed opportunity to earn to bring food to their families’ tables. The lack of a state would also eliminate the danger of racially motivated segregation and murder on a wide scale, making fears of a second holocaust or of continued Israeli oppression irrelevant. It would solve the problem of out of control government spending and the crowding out of the private sector. A return to wealth would make conflict of any type undesirable.

I think I'll let that speak for itself.

Aye, whilst I agree with some points, I think that the Palestinians view that the Israelis are thieves and trespassers would hamper most of the plans.

[Skibereen]

Seeing an end to the current political climate in Israel which has served to be a Holocaust on the Palestinian people, by which they at the very least afford Palestinians the right of travel and some form of self governance. I am not saying Israel didnt have a right to defend herself --but Zionism seems to exhibit itself in the form of what is Israeli Imperialism.

The article I linked is far more eloquent on the subject then is in my capacity presently. Israel, really Zionists are not interested in a peace with its neighbors and obviously the Palestinians--no common enemy leaves too much time for national introspection-- Ceded back some land and taking down the check points on the west bank, allowing the Palestinians to have a functioning economy these things would be good for Israel while being wholly non-Zionist and not being Anti-semetic.

[Non Aligned States]

Anti-Zionism is tilting at windmills. Israel exists, there are natives therof, the arguments against it's existence have ceased to matter.

Technically, no argument can cease to matter, so long as it still has proponents thereof. It may become insignificant, but anything can grow with the right conditions over time.

Furthermore, Zionism in this case carries a pair of meanings. One could be simply Israeli nationalism over statehood. The other is one that envisions a greater Israel encompassing many disputed territories that don't belong to it.

Certain politicians and believers in the latter often conflate the two, though more often with antisemitism, in order to shield the less wholesome aspects of their agenda with a blanket excuse.

[Libertarian Governance]

Seeing an end to the current political climate in Israel which has served to be a Holocaust on the Palestinian people, by which they at the very least afford Palestinians the right of travel and some form of self governance. I am not saying Israel didnt have a right to defend herself --but Zionism seems to exhibit itself in the form of what is Israeli Imperialism.

The article I linked is far more eloquent on the subject then is in my capacity presently. Israel, really Zionists are not interested in a peace with its neighbors and obviously the Palestinians--no common enemy leaves too much time for national introspection-- Ceded back some land and taking down the check points on the west bank, allowing the Palestinians to have a functioning economy these things would be good for Israel while being wholly non-Zionist and not being Anti-semetic.

I see and you opine that I should read between the lines of your rambling diatribe, poorly constructed at best as a series of unrelated and superfluous questions with no statement of position anywhere in the bunch? I was looking for an answer to the question asked not some attack on the author which you managed poorly, I might add. Newayz, I agree with your position on Palestine.

[Neesika]

Here's how I define the difference. Among the left, no one will admit to anti-Semitism, but they have no problem being virulently anti-Zionist. The honest anti-Zionists will target Israeli policies and not vilify Jews. The dishonest anti-Zionists are basically anti-Semites to that really insane ZOG level. The amount of time some people spend on the internet 'learning' about the worldwide Zionist conspiracy amazes me. They could actually get a real education in that time, if they so chose.

I find that once someone goes rabidly anti-Zioninst, all their intellectual rigor bleeds away, critical thinking skills become atrophied, and an inflated sense of superiority becomes overwhelming. I can no longer be friends with someone who has started down that path.

[Teccor]

Anti-Zionism is ignorance and groundless hatred.

Anti-Semitism is outright stupidity, as is any form of racism.

'Poor palestinians' my arse, they started all this crap by terror bombing Israeli cities when the jews didn't hand over their homeland.

The Jews were there first. Canaan anyone?

[Neesika]

Anti-Zionism is ignorance and groundless hatred.

Anti-Semitism is outright stupidity, as is any form of racism.

'Poor palestinians' my arse, they started all this crap by terror bombing Israeli cities when the jews didn't hand over their homeland.

The Jews were there first. Canaan anyone?

You know what really impresses me? The incredibly rare individual who can discuss the Isreali-Palestinian conflict without being a partisan douchebag.

It's just one of those topics that seems nearly impossible to discuss in any rational manner. Even those normally capable of seeing both sides of an issue are reduced to frothing absolutists on this topic.

So yeah. When I come across someone who isn't ridiculously biased one way or the other, it makes me look twice.

[Risottia]

This is a question for everyone who reads this thread, here is the question:

-Explain in detail the difference between Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism.

Anti-Semitism: racism aimed specifically against Semites. Through history, expecially European history, the typical anti-Semitist position was as a matter of fact anti-Jew as the Jews were for long time the only Semitic population in Europe (after the Moors left Spain) - though, with new immigration to Europe from Arabic countries, xenophobia against Semites other than Jews is on the rise.

Anti-Zionism: opposition to Zionism. After the WW2, mostly opposition to Israeli expansionism at the expenses of neighbouring Arabs. "Back to 1967 borders" is a typical position of anti-Zionists nowadays.

Zionism: historically, a part of the nationalist movement of the Jewish people - calling for the creation of a Jewish country on the ancestral lands instead of a Jewish country on new lands (see: Birobidzan, Jewish Autonomous Oblast). There have been various views about the creation of Israel, from the most militant ones (like Ben Gurion's) to those aiming at pacific settlement (like Nahum Goldmann's). Today, expansionists in Israel try to nobilitate their political views by calling themselves Zionists, thus creating an alleged link to the country's founding fathers.

[Risottia]

Anti-Semitism is simply racial/religious hatred. Like all forms of hate, it can only be really combatted via education and improved cosmopolitanism of the populace.

Anti-Zionism is tilting at windmills. Israel exists, there are natives therof, the arguments against it's existence have ceased to matter.

Not exactly, one can be AntiZionist and Pro-Israel. Or at least not Anti-Israel.

Interesting. How do you differentiate the two?

I think that Israel should exist as a country, and that also that Israeli expansionism should be stopped. Btw, I refrain from any form of racism.
I guess this makes me an anti-Zionist and a Pro-Israel, and definitely not an anti-Semite.

[Phenia]

Here's how I define the difference. Among the left, no one will admit to anti-Semitism, but they have no problem being virulently anti-Zionist. The honest anti-Zionists will target Israeli policies and not vilify Jews. The dishonest anti-Zionists are basically anti-Semites to that really insane ZOG level. The amount of time some people spend on the internet 'learning' about the worldwide Zionist conspiracy amazes me. They could actually get a real education in that time, if they so chose.

I find that once someone goes rabidly anti-Zioninst, all their intellectual rigor bleeds away, critical thinking skills become atrophied, and an inflated sense of superiority becomes overwhelming. I can no longer be friends with someone who has started down that path.

Yes

I know an "anti-Zionist" who spams every thread with talk about Jewish "eternal victimhood" and Jews as "panhandlers." Since most of the liberals on that forum are anti-Zionist, they don't call him out on this.

[Neesika]

Yes

I know an "anti-Zionist" who spams every thread with talk about Jewish "eternal victimhood" and Jews as "panhandlers." Since most of the liberals on that forum are anti-Zionist, they don't call him out on this.

I've lost a few friends to rabid anti-Zionism. It's really sad. Most of them were older people who had just really started to discover the internet, and hadn't really developed the 'filters' so many of us take for granted. It's really scary to watch how their sense of reality deteriorates, while at the same time they believe they've finally found TRUTH.

The perjorative language that some leftists use and, as you've mentioned, get away with, really fucking pisses me off. Oh look, I'm all for gender equity, I'm in anti-racist-action leagues, I'm this I'm that, solidarity blah blah...but I hate Jews. I mean, I hate Zionists! Yeah yeah, that's it!

The fuck? I never got it.

[Gauthier]

Anti-Semitism is simply racial/religious hatred. Like all forms of hate, it can only be really combatted via education and improved cosmopolitanism of the populace.

Anti-Zionism is tilting at windmills. Israel exists, there are natives therof, the arguments against it's existence have ceased to matter.

Not exactly, one can be AntiZionist and Pro-Israel. Or at least not Anti-Israel.

Interesting. How do you differentiate the two?

So you're declaring that opposing the policies of the Israeli government is inherently anti-Semitic?

[Gauthier]

Anti-Zionism is ignorance and groundless hatred.

Anti-Semitism is outright stupidity, as is any form of racism.

'Poor palestinians' my arse, they started all this crap by terror bombing Israeli cities when the jews didn't hand over their homeland.

The Jews were there first. Canaan anyone?

Kahanism, anyone?

[Linker Niederrhein]

Teccor makes baby jesus cry.

[Gauthier]

Teccor makes baby jesus cry.

You mean "Terror," or were you trying to say "Tesco makes baby jesus cry"?

[Neu California]

Teccor makes baby jesus cry.

You mean "Terror," or were you trying to say "Tesco makes baby jesus cry"?

No, he means Teccor, the poster

[Czardas]

Teccor makes baby jesus cry.

I can't say my political views were much more advanced when I was 16.





Well, I can, because they were, but I'm trying to be fair here.

[Kobrania]

Anti-Zionism is ignorance and groundless hatred.

Anti-Semitism is outright stupidity, as is any form of racism.

'Poor palestinians' my arse, they started all this crap by terror bombing Israeli cities when the jews didn't hand over their homeland.

The Jews were there first. Canaan anyone?

They left.
The land became Palestine, the Jews, with the aid of the Brits, Illegally reclaimed it.

[Czardas]

Yes

I know an "anti-Zionist" who spams every thread with talk about Jewish "eternal victimhood" and Jews as "panhandlers." Since most of the liberals on that forum are anti-Zionist, they don't call him out on this.

I've lost a few friends to rabid anti-Zionism. It's really sad. Most of them were older people who had just really started to discover the internet, and hadn't really developed the 'filters' so many of us take for granted. It's really scary to watch how their sense of reality deteriorates, while at the same time they believe they've finally found TRUTH.

The perjorative language that some leftists use and, as you've mentioned, get away with, really fucking pisses me off. Oh look, I'm all for gender equity, I'm in anti-racist-action leagues, I'm this I'm that, solidarity blah blah...but I hate Jews. I mean, I hate Zionists! Yeah yeah, that's it!

Presumably they're the same kind of person who disapproves of all territorial expansion ever, denounces use of "man" as a gender-neutral term on sexist grounds, refers to the majority of the authors in the essential canon of western literature as "dead white men" in a pejorative sense, etc.

I think the Israeli leadership is incompetent and fairly stupid, the military is mismanaged and grossly overinflated, and right-wing extremism and nationalism presents a major cause of social problems in the region. I support either a two- or one-state solution (the latter being a secular democracy or representative oligarchy) and disapprove of the killing of civilians. Where I differ from the anti-zionists is presumably in that I don't necessarily want the State of Israel to be abolished (it's got every right to be there) and I don't try to pretend the Palestinians are blameless or even less blameworthy than the Israelis. And I obviously don't attribute any of the problems to Jews being amoral, money-grabbing, attention-whore sociopaths. Why would they stoop so low when they already control the world's banks?

[Bavin]

The Jews were there first. Canaan anyone?

So? American Indians anyone?

[The Norse Hordes]

Anti-Semitism is simply racial/religious hatred. Like all forms of hate, it can only be really combatted via education and improved cosmopolitanism of the populace.

Anti-Zionism is tilting at windmills. Israel exists, there are natives therof, the arguments against it's existence have ceased to matter.

Not exactly, one can be AntiZionist and Pro-Israel. Or at least not Anti-Israel.

Interesting. How do you differentiate the two?

So you're declaring that opposing the policies of the Israeli government is inherently anti-Semitic?

Apperantly. It seems that opposing a government that regularly employs jack-booted facist-esq tactics and violates human rights on a near daily basis is only ok if that government isnt Israel. If they are, well, youre just a fuckin nazi.

[Tech-gnosis]

The Jews were there first. Canaan anyone?

I would imagine the Canaanites were there first.

[Teseract Corporation]

The land became Palestine, the Jews, with the aid of the Brits, Illegally reclaimed it.

What a complete lack of understanding about the situation you betray. The Brits did jack diddly to help the Jews before and during the '48 war. Hell, the Jews were fighting the Brits because they went back on their promises.