Anti-Zionism And Anti-Semitism

[Tekania]

Say WHAT?!!!

Oh, I'm sorry.... I assumed you were familiar with Christian beliefs...

[Takaram]

We are all going to die one day. There, I am a prophet.

[Goath]

The National Socialists would never have approved of a Zionist state! Israel's not an Apartheid State, the Arabs are treated better than their brothers in other nations. The Jews are far more fair rulers than their most dangerous enemy, Iran. I support Israel and know the deep hatred the Radical Islamists have for the Jews, for they believe are the evil offspring of Pigs and Apes, so that sounds a little socialist to me.

Wait...how does anything you typed sound "socialist"?

And while I'm not opposed to Israel's right to exist in the least...it isn't a sainted nation at all.

National Socialists i.e. Nazis

Oh national socialists! I understand...he wasn't talking about actual socialists, but fascists. it's clear to me now.

[Gauthier]

I can't believe this thread actually attracted a bunch of Kahanists.

[Tekania]

I can't believe this thread actually attracted a bunch of Kahanists.

Racists surfacing in NSG? My God, I am shocked... wait... nevermind.... just some heartburn...

[Kirrix]

Anti-semitism is racism against Jews because they are Jews. Anti-Zionism is opposition to the actions of certain Jews, namely the ones who feel that they have a divine right to other people's land.

Because of certain lackings in education revealed by this statement, I feel compelled to educate folks about a little of the history of the Levant (I use Levant because it is a nice, politically neutral term).

Way back when, there were a number of tribes vying for dominance in the region. An alliance of tribes who all belonged to the same monotheistic religion (Judaism) managed to gain the upper hand and drove out all the others, eventually establishing their own kingdom. These people, known as Israelites, were in charge for a number of years until the Persians arrived. After this begins the long history of Judaism known as "Who is Oppressing Us Now". (Seriously, look it up. A lot of folks get in on the action.) Eventually, much of the Jewish population was expelled by the various conquerors of the region. Somewhere in the middle of that mess is an Israelite uprising against the Romans which, among other retaliation, gets the province renamed to Palestine.

After this we enter that lovely period of history dominated by hatred between the Christians and the Muslims that resulted in numerous invasions of the region for religious purposes. Under the Muslims the Jews always had it a bit better than when the Christians were in charge, but I digress.

Let's skip a few chapters about the various Muslim rulers who were in control of the area at various times because it has little to do with the discussion at hand. We arrive at WWI where an embattled Anglo-French alliance is seeking ways to tip the balance of power in their favor. They come up with two plans. The first is sending an emissary to the Bedouin tribes in the Ottoman Empire, informing them that if they rise up against the Turks, the Brits will help them form a pan-Arab republic. The subsequent uprising by a hopeful Arab population weakens the Ottoman Empire. The second strategy is to make an appeal to the American Jews (a group that contained many of America's most prominent businessmen and other movers and shakers) to get America into the war on the Allies side. In return the Jews were promised the creation of a Jewish state in a desert province of the Ottoman Empire called Palestine. The Jews apply pressure and these as well as other reasons eventually force America into the war.

Long story short, the Brits don't hold up their end of either bargain. Despite this, Jews start moving in mass to the British Mandate of Palestine. Upon arriving they start buying homes, farms, and other bits of land. For a long time, no one really cares. The Brits occasionally put restrictions on Jewish immigration to Palestine, but they are frequently worked around by the Jews because they are just that clever.

WWII rolls around. At the end, the Brits can no longer maintain their empire and a lot of people are horrified at what the Nazis did to the Jews in particular (after all, almost half of those exterminated in the Holocaust were Jews). The Brits decide to finally live up to their bargains somewhat, giving the Arabs a lot of separate (but still independent of the empire) states. The Jews are promised a bit of land in what was Palestine, since Transjordan, which was also part of the area promised them, was instead given over to the newly created nation of Jordan.

There is still a significant Arab population in the area promised to the Jews who object to being in a Jewish state, so the Brits propose another sectioning of the region, dividing the remaining territory in two to create one state for the "Palestinians" (who hadn't really existed as a distinct group from other Arab populations until this point) and the Jews. The Palestinians were given 55% of the land, the Jews were given 45%, and Jerusalem would remain an international territory. That 45% was for the most part area owned predominantly by Jews, or in the case of the Sinai Desert, no one owned the area and it was open to settlement. The Jews agreed. The Palestinians didn't. Despite a lack of agreement on the borders or existence of two states, the Brits started to pull out. As they did, the Jews and Palestinians started fighting. The Jews won, took control of the Palestinian areas and declared the State of Israel. From this point on, everyone should be familiar with what has happened in the region, so I'll say no more about it.

[Arumdaum]

Anti-Semitism is hating Jews
Anti-Zionism is hating Jewish nationalism
(I think)

[Soratsin]

You can't stop prophesies, the prophets predicted that Israel shall become established again before the beginning of the Tribulation. Since Israel was founded 61 years ago, a major prophecy had been fulfilled.

For starters, prophecies are prediction of the future, not instructions. Second, the very same prophecy you're alluding to states that a jewish nation will be founded again in Israel by the messiah once he actually shows up. This is why some orthodox sects of judaism, like Hasidism oppose Israel.

[Kirrix]

I can't believe this thread actually attracted a bunch of Kahanists.

Really? You're going to accuse us of being Kahanists because we thinks Israel has the right to exist and defend itself?

[Arumdaum]

This is a question for everyone who reads this thread, here is the question:

-Explain in detail the difference between Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism.

Please, I am not trolling, I don't even know what it means. No whining, just explain in detail the difference, and if you can't think of anything, then it means that these two are one and the same. Explain in detail, no rambling "Israel's bad! Israel's bad!", it's a democracy and it's fighting against a ruthless enemy, so please answer my question and explain.

also it's more like Israel is being ruthless to Palestine.

[Kirrix]

also it's more like Israel is being ruthless to Palestine.

Firstly, there is no "Palestine". The province/mandate disappeared years ago. There are Palestinians however.

Secondly, the government of Israel is actually pretty good to the Palestinians most of the time. It's just when Hamas rocket attacks have gotten really bad that Palestinians are actually being repressed.

[Cosmopoles]

<snip>

Nice little abridged history there; unfortunately, you missed out the parts where almost a million Arabs left Israel and have been unable to return to their homes and the continued encroachment on Palestinian territory by Israeli settlers.

[Kirrix]

Nice little abridged history there; unfortunately, you missed out the parts where almost a million Arabs left Israel and have been unable to return to their homes and the continued encroachment on Palestinian territory by Israeli settlers.

I did specifically say you should know the rest of this. And yes, I know that a million Arabs were displaced and that Israeli settlers (who only a minority of the Israeli population support) were trying to encroach on "Palestinian Territory". I personally don't like the settlements. Most Israelis don't like the settlements. I'm all in favor of a Palestinian state.

Step one, get their shit together and stop allowing such Hamas to hide in your apartment building/school/hospital/mosque. The Israeli military wouldn't be targeting "civilians" is said civilians stopped interposing themselves between the IDF and Hamas.

[Cosmopoles]

I did specifically say you should know the rest of this. And yes, I know that a million Arabs were displaced and that Israeli settlers (who only a minority of the Israeli population support) were trying to encroach on "Palestinian Territory". I personally don't like the settlements. Most Israelis don't like the settlements. I'm all in favor of a Palestinian state.

Step one, get their shit together and stop allowing such Hamas to hide in your apartment building/school/hospital/mosque. The Israeli military wouldn't be targeting "civilians" is said civilians stopped interposing themselves between the IDF and Hamas.

Easier said than done when Hamas form the local government and are responsible for a great deal of the education and health care that Palestinians receive.

[Kirrix]

So's Kim Jung-Il for North Korea.

I'm not saying it's anything but a crappy situation over there and simple answers don't exist, but the international community has to stop condemning Israel every time parents send their kids to dance on top of apartment buildings housing Hamas mortars.

[Bavin]

Prophecies are about as reliable as American cars...

Oh wait, American cars are more reliable then that.

[Cosmopoles]

So's Kim Jung-Il for North Korea.

I'm not saying it's anything but a crappy situation over there and simple answers don't exist, but the international community has to stop condemning Israel every time parents send their kids to dance on top of apartment buildings housing Hamas mortars.

The international community condemns Israel not for the simple fact that some civilian casualties occur as is to be expected in a densely populated combat area such as the Gaza strip, but the reckless disregard for civilian safety that the IDF regularly display.

[Gauthier]

I did specifically say you should know the rest of this. And yes, I know that a million Arabs were displaced and that Israeli settlers (who only a minority of the Israeli population support) were trying to encroach on "Palestinian Territory". I personally don't like the settlements. Most Israelis don't like the settlements. I'm all in favor of a Palestinian state.

Step one, get their shit together and stop allowing such Hamas to hide in your apartment building/school/hospital/mosque. The Israeli military wouldn't be targeting "civilians" is said civilians stopped interposing themselves between the IDF and Hamas.

Easier said than done when Hamas form the local government and are responsible for a great deal of the education and health care that Palestinians receive.

Which of course wouldn't have been possible in the first place if the Israeli government didn't impose such shithole restrictions and indiscriminate collective punishment on the Palestinian populace to begin with, thus leaving them no real viable alternative except to turn to Hamas for social services and infrastructure.

[Kirrix]

I honestly don't find reports on "Israeli War Crimes" issued by the UN to ever to be really reliable. The UN for a long time has been extremely hostile to Israel.

Also, the Israelis were actually helping to build the Palestinian infrastructure for a while before Yasser Arafat demanded all of Jerusalem. The Palestinians didn't have to turn to a terrorist group for social services. They chose to.

And before anyone starts jumping on me for calling Hamas a terrorist group, it is a terrorist group. There main tactics are almost all based on attacking civilian targets. (For the record, my list of Terrorist Groups includes the KKK, the Kahanists, and a number of other orginizations that would love to slaughter the Palestinians

[Neu California]

I honestly don't find reports on "Israeli War Crimes" issued by the UN to ever to be really reliable. The UN for a long time has been extremely hostile to Israel.

So then who can we trust for reports on Israeli War Crimes?

Also, the Israelis were actually helping to build the Palestinian infrastructure for a while before Yasser Arafat demanded all of Jerusalem. The Palestinians didn't have to turn to a terrorist group for social services. They chose to.

Source for the first? As for the second, when your choice is between a corrupt party willing to negotiate with Israel (Fatah) and an extremist one that directly helps the people (Hamas), which will you choose?

And before anyone starts jumping on me for calling Hamas a terrorist group, it is a terrorist group. There main tactics are almost all based on attacking civilian targets. (For the record, my list of Terrorist Groups includes the KKK, the Kahanists, and a number of other orginizations that would love to slaughter the Palestinians

Has anyone said they're not?

[Cosmopoles]

I honestly don't find reports on "Israeli War Crimes" issued by the UN to ever to be really reliable. The UN for a long time has been extremely hostile to Israel.

How exactly is the UN hostile towards Israel?

[Dyakovo]

I honestly don't find reports on "Israeli War Crimes" issued by the UN to ever to be really reliable. The UN for a long time has been extremely hostile to Israel.

So then who can we trust for reports on Israeli War Crimes?

Israel of course...

[Yootopia]

The UN for a long time has been extremely hostile to Israel.

Dunno about that, we've not got sanctions or anything on Israel...

[Gauthier]

The UN for a long time has been extremely hostile to Israel.

Dunno about that, we've not got sanctions or anything on Israel...

And never will as long as the U.S. on the Permanent Security Council covers Israel's ass, no matter what it does.

[Yootopia]

The UN for a long time has been extremely hostile to Israel.

Dunno about that, we've not got sanctions or anything on Israel...

And never will as long as the U.S. on the Permanent Security Council covers Israel's ass, no matter what it does.

Quite.