Quantum Mechanics and Omniscience

[Zykorinov]

Much like omnipotence being carefully defined as being able to do anything which can be done, omniscience can be carefully redefined as knowing everything which can be known.

Who says omnipotence is being able to do anything which can be done? Because that's wrong. Omnipotence is being able to do anything.

Which would mean that Quantum Mechanics is incorrect, as this Omniscient being can "see" everything, making the quantum wavelengths fade into actuality.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

I'll play the Jesuite...
You know, Heisenberg's principle is only about measuring simultaneously two variables that are classically conjugated in mechanics (that is, their product is an action). That is, about the act of gathering knowledge, not about knowledge per se.
If we assume an omnipotent deity, of course it could have ways other than measuring to gather knowledge.

Also there's the problem that when you measure, you cause the collapse of the probability density wavefunction... so EVEN assuming that an omnipotent deity couldn't know in a deterministic way, it still could know what the outcome of the measure will be.

You're trying to pull a "hidden variables" model out of thin air. Those kinda don't work. Also, Heisenberg's principle applies no matter what method of gathering knowledge one uses. Thus, either the hidden variables are also hidden from god, or there simply are no hidden variables. The latter is almost infinitely more probable. The hidden variables idea is almost an absurdity.

[Risottia]

I'll play the Jesuite...
You know, Heisenberg's principle is only about measuring simultaneously two variables that are classically conjugated in mechanics (that is, their product is an action). That is, about the act of gathering knowledge, not about knowledge per se.
If we assume an omnipotent deity, of course it could have ways other than measuring to gather knowledge.

Also there's the problem that when you measure, you cause the collapse of the probability density wavefunction... so EVEN assuming that an omnipotent deity couldn't know in a deterministic way, it still could know what the outcome of the measure will be.

You're trying to pull a "hidden variables" model out of thin air. Those kinda don't work. Also, Heisenberg's principle applies no matter what method of gathering knowledge one uses. Thus, either the hidden variables are also hidden from god, or there simply are no hidden variables. The latter is almost infinitely more probable. The hidden variables idea is almost an absurdity.

1.Not quite a "hidden variables" models. Just omnipotence.
2.Quite not. It applies only if you're doing an operation like <p|A|p>=a .
3."Gathering" knowledge is different from "already having" it.

So actually one could wriggle out of your argument.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

Really? I find that hard to believe... Do you mean literally impossible or theoretically impossible?

It cannot happen. Literal omnipotence would allow a being to do things which are self-refuting. Hence, true omnipotence contradicts itself. If we impose the limitation that "god can do anything so long as it isn't logically self-refuting," then omnipotence is technically possible, but then we aren't dealing with true omnipotence but a castrated cousin.

God appeared to me, and was not seen. It spoke to me and said nothing.

"I walk in paradox unharmed," It said and did not say. "I am everything and nothing. I inerrantly know everything you will do, and you can do something completely different. I make the very laws of the universe, break them at will, and they are as unbroken."

And I said, "How can this be?"

And God said, "I'm a woman."

^this

[Peepelonia]

Which would mean that Quantum Mechanics is incorrect, as this Omniscient being can "see" everything, making the quantum wavelengths fade into actuality.

False I'm afraid.

Omniscient means 'all knowing'. Is it not impossible that you can create a watch(for example) and becuase you created it, you know all of it's componates without the need to 'see' it?

[Holy Cheese and Shoes]

I'm probably missing something, but what is it about quantum mechanics that makes the universe "non-deterministic"? As opposed to merely "currently outside our ability to predict"?

[Gift-of-god]

I'm probably missing something, but what is it about quantum mechanics that makes the universe "non-deterministic"? As opposed to merely "currently outside our ability to predict"?

Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle, I believe.

EDIT: I found this useful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinis ... al_physics

[Holy Cheese and Shoes]

I'm probably missing something, but what is it about quantum mechanics that makes the universe "non-deterministic"? As opposed to merely "currently outside our ability to predict"?

Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle, I believe.

EDIT: I found this useful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinis ... al_physics

Cheers, I had just finished reading that as you edited and posted the link

I'm trying to work out whether that means (in the context of QM)

1."in principle it is impossible to know 2 related quantities precisely"
2."in practise it is impossible to know 2 related quantities precisely"
3."no measurable quantities have any existence before being measured"

1. Seems like it would be a barrier to omniscience, unless the nature of the universe dictates what it is possible to know
2. Would not necessarily apply to god, who probably has more methods at his disposal than us
3. Would not be a problem as there is nothing to be known until a measurement occurs

I still don't see how our ability to deduce particular properties has a bearing on whether the universe is deterministic. Our ability to determine, and the universe being undetermined, are not necessarily related.