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Quantum Mechanics and Omniscience

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UnhealthyTruthseeker
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Quantum Mechanics and Omniscience

Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:10 pm

Are they compatible? It seems like the naive conception of omniscience in which god "knows everything" doesn't really square with a non-deterministic universe. Both the Copenhagen and the many-worlds interpretations would require "corrections" to the concept of omnipotence.

In the Copenhagen version(s), god only knows the future to within a level of certainty allotted by the particular system. (That level of certainty isn't always h-bar/2. It can be larger.) Also, not only is god limited in his knowledge of the future, Copenhagen interpretations limit his knowledge of the present state of things.

In the many-worlds system(s), god knows every future that will happen separately, but, because they all happen, there's no way for him to say "which" happens, as god would experience them all, rather than just the one that we experience.

A third possibility that works with both is that god's omnipotence simply doesn't include knowledge of the future.

A fourth possibility is that there is no god.

Discuss.
A little homework for you!

What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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Buffett and Colbert
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Postby Buffett and Colbert » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:12 pm

Well doesn't the mere definition of omniscience trump any principles of quantum physics scientists come up with?

Just sayin'...
Last edited by Buffett and Colbert on Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If the knowledge isn't useful, you haven't found the lesson yet. ~Iniika
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His Jedi mind tricks are insignificant compared to the power of Buffy's sex appeal.
Keronians wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:My law class took my virginity. And it was 100% consensual.

I accuse your precious law class of statutory rape.

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Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:13 pm

Buffett and Colbert wrote:Well doesn't the mere definition of omniscience trump any parameters for quantum physics scientists come up with?

Just sayin'...


Not really. The very idea of omniscience simply doesn't fit with an indeterminate universe. If god is truly omniscient, then it is simply the case that the universe is deterministic.
Last edited by UnhealthyTruthseeker on Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A little homework for you!

What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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Rotting Corpse
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Postby Rotting Corpse » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:16 pm

Cyborgs. Cybernetic organisms.

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Buffett and Colbert
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Postby Buffett and Colbert » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:16 pm

UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:Well doesn't the mere definition of omniscience trump any parameters for quantum physics scientists come up with?

Just sayin'...


Not really. The very idea of omnipotence simply doesn't fit with an indeterminate universe. If god is truly omnipotent, then it is simply the case that the universe is deterministic.

*after a flurry of Wikipedia searches...*

Why would God's omnipotence have an effect on whether the universe is deterministic or not?
If the knowledge isn't useful, you haven't found the lesson yet. ~Iniika
You-Gi-Owe wrote:If someone were to ask me about your online persona as a standard of your "date-ability", I'd rate you as "worth investigating further & passionate about beliefs". But, enough of the idle speculation on why you didn't score with the opposite gender.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:Clever, but your Jedi mind tricks don't work on me.

His Jedi mind tricks are insignificant compared to the power of Buffy's sex appeal.
Keronians wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:My law class took my virginity. And it was 100% consensual.

I accuse your precious law class of statutory rape.

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Zykorinov
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Postby Zykorinov » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:16 pm

Buffett and Colbert wrote:Well doesn't the mere definition of omniscience trump any principles of quantum physics scientists come up with?

Just sayin'...

It does. The "Big Three" religions all give us an omniscient God, capable of seeing everything simultaneously. As he sees everything, everywhere, wouldn't this lead to the instantaneous collapse of every quantum waveform in the universe, since when those waveforms will collapse into actuality when they are measured or observed?
Last edited by Zykorinov on Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
i̛̺̯̝̥̗̬̲'̢̺͎͎̏ͪ̏ͪ̓m͚̠̑̊ͥͯͣ ̩͍͈̓͂͂̿a̛̬̞̗̻̱͎̙̔ ̱̮̜͗ͫfͬ́ͭ̽͏̤͍̟̤͖̼a̯͇ͣ̒̃͐̈́m͖̞̘̉̍ͦ͆ͯoͯ̆͗ͫ̽͏̰̻̜̬̲̞̺u͂ͪ̎ͥ̿̅̾̕ṣ͕͇̭ͩ͂͠ ̠̟͗̃̾͋ͩͅs̢͎̻̟̙͖̖̬ͪ̏̈̅t̝̮̥̳̭͍̥ͦ͊ǫ̪̥̾̿̏̾ͩͩ̅r̼͖̘̤̈͗̈́m̡̼͎̦̙̜̜ͪͫ̆̃̅ͩẗ̢̠͍́͗ͥ̈rͣ̾̌͏͎̤̣͉̮̹͙o̖̞͕͌o͖̯͙̝̺̔ͥ̓̽̒͑͝p͆e̙͌̍ͧͨr̵͇̳̲̼͎͛ͭͦͧ͛ͦͣ

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Rotting Corpse
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Postby Rotting Corpse » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:16 pm

God is a cyborg.

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New Kereptica
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Postby New Kereptica » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:17 pm

Buffett and Colbert wrote:
UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:Well doesn't the mere definition of omniscience trump any parameters for quantum physics scientists come up with?

Just sayin'...


Not really. The very idea of omnipotence simply doesn't fit with an indeterminate universe. If god is truly omnipotent, then it is simply the case that the universe is deterministic.

*after a flurry of Wikipedia searches...*

Why would God's omnipotence have an effect on whether the universe is deterministic or not?


If he knows the absolute course the future will take then there is no chance in anything. It is entirely deterministic.
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Zykorinov
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Postby Zykorinov » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:17 pm

Rotting Corpse wrote:God is a cyborg.

I reject your reality, and substitute my own!
i̛̺̯̝̥̗̬̲'̢̺͎͎̏ͪ̏ͪ̓m͚̠̑̊ͥͯͣ ̩͍͈̓͂͂̿a̛̬̞̗̻̱͎̙̔ ̱̮̜͗ͫfͬ́ͭ̽͏̤͍̟̤͖̼a̯͇ͣ̒̃͐̈́m͖̞̘̉̍ͦ͆ͯoͯ̆͗ͫ̽͏̰̻̜̬̲̞̺u͂ͪ̎ͥ̿̅̾̕ṣ͕͇̭ͩ͂͠ ̠̟͗̃̾͋ͩͅs̢͎̻̟̙͖̖̬ͪ̏̈̅t̝̮̥̳̭͍̥ͦ͊ǫ̪̥̾̿̏̾ͩͩ̅r̼͖̘̤̈͗̈́m̡̼͎̦̙̜̜ͪͫ̆̃̅ͩẗ̢̠͍́͗ͥ̈rͣ̾̌͏͎̤̣͉̮̹͙o̖̞͕͌o͖̯͙̝̺̔ͥ̓̽̒͑͝p͆e̙͌̍ͧͨr̵͇̳̲̼͎͛ͭͦͧ͛ͦͣ

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UnhealthyTruthseeker
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Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:17 pm

Buffett and Colbert wrote:*after a flurry of Wikipedia searches...*

Why would God's omnipotence have an effect on whether the universe is deterministic or not?


It's not omnipotence. It's omniscience. If god knows the future with complete certainty, then the future necessarily is set in stone. If the future isn't set in stone, then he doesn't know it with certainty.
A little homework for you!

What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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Buffett and Colbert
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Postby Buffett and Colbert » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:18 pm

New Kereptica wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:
UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:Well doesn't the mere definition of omniscience trump any parameters for quantum physics scientists come up with?

Just sayin'...


Not really. The very idea of omnipotence simply doesn't fit with an indeterminate universe. If god is truly omnipotent, then it is simply the case that the universe is deterministic.

*after a flurry of Wikipedia searches...*

Why would God's omnipotence have an effect on whether the universe is deterministic or not?


If he knows the absolute course the future will take then there is no chance in anything. It is entirely deterministic.

But why would God's knowing of the future have an effect on the universe itself (assuming God did nothing to intervene otherwise)?
EDIT-- Just because God supposedly knows how the future will play out doesn't mean that his omnipotence/omniscience determined how it would.
Last edited by Buffett and Colbert on Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
If the knowledge isn't useful, you haven't found the lesson yet. ~Iniika
You-Gi-Owe wrote:If someone were to ask me about your online persona as a standard of your "date-ability", I'd rate you as "worth investigating further & passionate about beliefs". But, enough of the idle speculation on why you didn't score with the opposite gender.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:Clever, but your Jedi mind tricks don't work on me.

His Jedi mind tricks are insignificant compared to the power of Buffy's sex appeal.
Keronians wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:My law class took my virginity. And it was 100% consensual.

I accuse your precious law class of statutory rape.

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UnhealthyTruthseeker
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Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:20 pm

Buffett and Colbert wrote:But why would God's knowing of the future have an effect on the universe itself (assuming God did nothing to intervene otherwise)?


It wouldn't. But if he knows the future, it must be determined, either by him or the laws of physics or some other entity. If it isn't completely determined, then he can't know the future with certainty. The two notions are not compatible.
A little homework for you!

What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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Lunatic Goofballs
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Postby Lunatic Goofballs » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:20 pm

UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:But why would God's knowing of the future have an effect on the universe itself (assuming God did nothing to intervene otherwise)?


It wouldn't. But if he knows the future, it must be determined, either by him or the laws of physics or some other entity. If it isn't completely determined, then he can't know the future with certainty. The two notions are not compatible.


What if He makes the future?
Life's Short. Munch Tacos.

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Hunter S. Thompson

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Rotting Corpse
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Postby Rotting Corpse » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:21 pm

Hell is reserved for people who ask these questions.

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Zykorinov
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Postby Zykorinov » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:21 pm

UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:But why would God's knowing of the future have an effect on the universe itself (assuming God did nothing to intervene otherwise)?


It wouldn't. But if he knows the future, it must be determined, either by him or the laws of physics or some other entity. If it isn't completely determined, then he can't know the future with certainty. The two notions are not compatible.

Which also debunks Randomism, if Omniscience is true, of course.
i̛̺̯̝̥̗̬̲'̢̺͎͎̏ͪ̏ͪ̓m͚̠̑̊ͥͯͣ ̩͍͈̓͂͂̿a̛̬̞̗̻̱͎̙̔ ̱̮̜͗ͫfͬ́ͭ̽͏̤͍̟̤͖̼a̯͇ͣ̒̃͐̈́m͖̞̘̉̍ͦ͆ͯoͯ̆͗ͫ̽͏̰̻̜̬̲̞̺u͂ͪ̎ͥ̿̅̾̕ṣ͕͇̭ͩ͂͠ ̠̟͗̃̾͋ͩͅs̢͎̻̟̙͖̖̬ͪ̏̈̅t̝̮̥̳̭͍̥ͦ͊ǫ̪̥̾̿̏̾ͩͩ̅r̼͖̘̤̈͗̈́m̡̼͎̦̙̜̜ͪͫ̆̃̅ͩẗ̢̠͍́͗ͥ̈rͣ̾̌͏͎̤̣͉̮̹͙o̖̞͕͌o͖̯͙̝̺̔ͥ̓̽̒͑͝p͆e̙͌̍ͧͨr̵͇̳̲̼͎͛ͭͦͧ͛ͦͣ

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UnhealthyTruthseeker
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Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:21 pm

Lunatic Goofballs wrote:What if He makes the future?


Then it's determined isn't it?
A little homework for you!

What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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Buffett and Colbert
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Postby Buffett and Colbert » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:21 pm

UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:But why would God's knowing of the future have an effect on the universe itself (assuming God did nothing to intervene otherwise)?


It wouldn't. But if he knows the future, it must be determined, either by him or the laws of physics or some other entity. If it isn't completely determined, then he can't know the future with certainty. The two notions are not compatible.

I don't see how God knowing the future necessarily means that he made it that way (making the universe deterministic). Or at least, his omniscience wouldn't have had anything to do with it.
If the knowledge isn't useful, you haven't found the lesson yet. ~Iniika
You-Gi-Owe wrote:If someone were to ask me about your online persona as a standard of your "date-ability", I'd rate you as "worth investigating further & passionate about beliefs". But, enough of the idle speculation on why you didn't score with the opposite gender.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:Clever, but your Jedi mind tricks don't work on me.

His Jedi mind tricks are insignificant compared to the power of Buffy's sex appeal.
Keronians wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:My law class took my virginity. And it was 100% consensual.

I accuse your precious law class of statutory rape.

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UnhealthyTruthseeker
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Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:23 pm

Zykorinov wrote:Which also debunks Randomism, if Omniscience is true, of course.


I've often not understood what people mean when they say random. In the context of common vernacular, random often means "contains some probabilistic elements to it." In statistics, random is often reserved to describe systems where every outcome is equally likely to happen.
A little homework for you!

What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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Lunatic Goofballs
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Postby Lunatic Goofballs » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:23 pm

UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:What if He makes the future?


Then it's determined isn't it?


Not until He makes it.
Life's Short. Munch Tacos.

“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”
Hunter S. Thompson

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Postby Lunatic Goofballs » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:24 pm

Rotting Corpse wrote:Hell is reserved for people who ask these questions.


Good. I'd hate to spend eternity with the kind of people who wouldn't. ;)
Life's Short. Munch Tacos.

“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”
Hunter S. Thompson

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Rotting Corpse
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Postby Rotting Corpse » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:24 pm

Jesus had days like this.

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Buffett and Colbert
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Postby Buffett and Colbert » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:25 pm

Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:What if He makes the future?


Then it's determined isn't it?


Not until He makes it.

If there is a future, and God made the future, doesn't it stand to reason that God has already made that future?
If the knowledge isn't useful, you haven't found the lesson yet. ~Iniika
You-Gi-Owe wrote:If someone were to ask me about your online persona as a standard of your "date-ability", I'd rate you as "worth investigating further & passionate about beliefs". But, enough of the idle speculation on why you didn't score with the opposite gender.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:Clever, but your Jedi mind tricks don't work on me.

His Jedi mind tricks are insignificant compared to the power of Buffy's sex appeal.
Keronians wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:My law class took my virginity. And it was 100% consensual.

I accuse your precious law class of statutory rape.

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UnhealthyTruthseeker
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Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:25 pm

Buffett and Colbert wrote:I don't see how God knowing the future necessarily means that he made it that way (making the universe deterministic). Or at least, his omniscience wouldn't have had anything to do with it.


When did I ever say that it means that he made it that way? I just said that his ability to know the future with certainty is entirely contingent on:

1) Essentially 90% of all modern physics being totally, totally wrong.

and

2) The universe being completely deterministic.
A little homework for you!

What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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Zykorinov
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Postby Zykorinov » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:25 pm

UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Zykorinov wrote:Which also debunks Randomism, if Omniscience is true, of course.


I've often not understood what people mean when they say random. In the context of common vernacular, random often means "contains some probabilistic elements to it." In statistics, random is often reserved to describe systems where every outcome is equally likely to happen.

Which means there is no predetermined outcome, which is refuted if Omniscience is correct.
i̛̺̯̝̥̗̬̲'̢̺͎͎̏ͪ̏ͪ̓m͚̠̑̊ͥͯͣ ̩͍͈̓͂͂̿a̛̬̞̗̻̱͎̙̔ ̱̮̜͗ͫfͬ́ͭ̽͏̤͍̟̤͖̼a̯͇ͣ̒̃͐̈́m͖̞̘̉̍ͦ͆ͯoͯ̆͗ͫ̽͏̰̻̜̬̲̞̺u͂ͪ̎ͥ̿̅̾̕ṣ͕͇̭ͩ͂͠ ̠̟͗̃̾͋ͩͅs̢͎̻̟̙͖̖̬ͪ̏̈̅t̝̮̥̳̭͍̥ͦ͊ǫ̪̥̾̿̏̾ͩͩ̅r̼͖̘̤̈͗̈́m̡̼͎̦̙̜̜ͪͫ̆̃̅ͩẗ̢̠͍́͗ͥ̈rͣ̾̌͏͎̤̣͉̮̹͙o̖̞͕͌o͖̯͙̝̺̔ͥ̓̽̒͑͝p͆e̙͌̍ͧͨr̵͇̳̲̼͎͛ͭͦͧ͛ͦͣ

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Lunatic Goofballs
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Postby Lunatic Goofballs » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:26 pm

Buffett and Colbert wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:What if He makes the future?


Then it's determined isn't it?


Not until He makes it.

If there is a future, and God made the future, doesn't it stand to reason that God has already made that future?


Is there a future?
Life's Short. Munch Tacos.

“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”
Hunter S. Thompson

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