Does God exist?

[Distruzio]

"he's a silent protector, a guardian that never sleeps, it's

NANANANANNANANANANNA

BATMAAAN

Jesus Christ... is Batman?

I need to make a religion on that. Batmananity.

Baconism would be cooler. Not by much, as Batman is, by far, the greatest superhero ever. But bacon is cooler.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Have I? No. Have scientists found any evidence that might suggest any possibility of your scenarios? No.

/eof

And there you have it. They haven't found any evidence, because they haven't bothered to look. I think it's a shame-- we could potentially discover a new discipline of science, but we're wasting our time making cats that glow in the dark (which is pretty cool, don't get me wrong, and it could potentially help scientists discover ways to cure genetic diseases, but still, it's the principle of the thing).

Haven't bothered to look? Are you shitting me? So we don't study astrophysics, cosmology, quantum mechanics, mathematics, physics, biology etc etc?

[Menassa]

Let's first all remember what "God" is gentlemen and gentlewoman.

God is, what most Christians from most dominions say, a Jewish zombie in the sky that watches over all of us, all the time. All 7 billion of us. Everyday, 24/7, nonstop. He supposedly protects us from dangers by sending his "angels" down to protect us. Although they seem to be invisible... which is a shame, because if I need help from him, I don't know when his angels arrive. His angels don't seem to do a good job protecting people either, considering almost 300,000 people on this planet die everyday. Maybe he just doesn't like us.

You've neglected the other 5 Billion people in the world.

And it is also my understanding that more people are born than those that die.

[Esparmuran]

Let's first all remember what "God" is gentlemen and gentlewoman.

God is, what most Christians from most dominions say, a Jewish zombie in the sky that watches over all of us, all the time. All 7 billion of us. Everyday, 24/7, nonstop.

So, he's a voyeur. Problem?

He supposedly protects us from dangers by sending his "angels" down to protect us. Although they seem to be invisible... which is a shame, because if I need help from him, I don't know when his angels arrive. His angels don't seem to do a good job protecting people either, considering almost 300,000 people on this planet die everyday. Maybe he just doesn't like us.

Who claims this? Where?

Voyeur...

the claim? My mother is catholic, and she used to say angels came down to protect us. And for the invisible part... well, I haven't seen any.

As for the deaths.

[Nunyabeez]

And there you have it. They haven't found any evidence, because they haven't bothered to look. I think it's a shame-- we could potentially discover a new discipline of science, but we're wasting our time making cats that glow in the dark (which is pretty cool, don't get me wrong, and it could potentially help scientists discover ways to cure genetic diseases, but still, it's the principle of the thing).

Haven't bothered to look? Are you shitting me? So we don't study astrophysics, cosmology, quantum mechanics, mathematics, physics, biology etc etc?

I like you.. sort of.

[Koumakan Underground]

Sulfur hexafluoride is some cool-ass shit. I wanna get some just so I can float things on it and pretend that I'm magical.

You could just get a fly, put it in the refrigerator/icebox so that it hibernates (don't kill it), then rub your hands together and place it in your palm and "resurrect" it.
A bit tricky to do, but makes a decent magic trick to unsuspecting victims

Except I hate flies. Or any insects, for that matter, except for European honeybees (which are kind of fuzzy and cute).
Are there any other creatures I could use for this?

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

But aren't there certain situations where some laws don't apply ? like cause and effect. It would be an endless loop and nothing would have come into existence if the law was true for all cases.

Not to mention the fact that scientists continue to discover whole planets, stars, and solar systems where our laws of physics don't apply. Then there are the materialshere on earththat disregard physics altogether.

There are no our laws of physics.

[Distruzio]

And there you have it. They haven't found any evidence, because they haven't bothered to look. I think it's a shame-- we could potentially discover a new discipline of science, but we're wasting our time making cats that glow in the dark (which is pretty cool, don't get me wrong, and it could potentially help scientists discover ways to cure genetic diseases, but still, it's the principle of the thing).

Haven't bothered to look? Are you shitting me? So we don't study astrophysics, cosmology, quantum mechanics, mathematics, physics, biology etc etc?

Or theology.

[Distruzio]

Not to mention the fact that scientists continue to discover whole planets, stars, and solar systems where our laws of physics don't apply. Then there are the materialshere on earththat disregard physics altogether.

There are no our laws of physics.

Meh... i meant, laws of physics as we understand them. Shoot me.

[Cosara]

Not to mention the fact that scientists continue to discover whole planets, stars, and solar systems where our laws of physics don't apply. Then there are the materialshere on earththat disregard physics altogether.

There are no our laws of physics.

Apparently so, since those apparently do not comply with the Laws of Physics as we know them.

[The Rich Port]

There are no our laws of physics.

Apparently so, since those apparently do not comply with the Laws of Physics as we know them.

Oh, look, the guy who doesn't know how to debate came back from retreating with his tail between his legs.

[Distruzio]

So, he's a voyeur. Problem?




Who claims this? Where?

Voyeur...

the claim? My mother is catholic, and she used to say angels came down to protect us. And for the invisible part... well, I haven't seen any.

As for the deaths.

Well, were I a Protestant (and I'm not), I'd hazard a guess that God is saving those who die as death post-Jesus isn't as bad as life in a corrupted world. Since I'm not Protestant, however, those deaths are tragic but are hardly to be laid at the feet of God.

[Jefferstown]

(All of this is, as I've said, completely off-topic. The question doesn't require us to address to God of Bible specifically. But this is a hell of a good reply, so I'm responding to it.)

Of course you do. You said you accepted the Calvinist notion of predestination right? That means you believe in a being that claims to love everyone, yet creates people with the intent of them going to hell. That's not love, that's sadism.

I also hold to a compatibilist view of free will. I'll go into more detail later when I have more time (I have to go to work in a few minutes), but essentially I don't accept that God's Sovereignty absolves us of responsibility for our actions.

As well as that, I don't know who the 'elect' are. Nobody does. Who am I to say that it isn't everyone? For all I know, nobody is condemned. It's not something I need to know.

I have a better one. A woman in the the Democratic Republic of Congo prays to God as her twelve year old son is forced to rape her at gunpoint. God stands idly by as her son is then forced to kill her and his father before being pressed into becoming a child solider. But hey, God works in mysterious ways right?

Graphic. And you're right to bring it up. The problem of evil is one of the reasons I stopped believing when I was a teenager, some seriously fucked-up shit happens in the world and it's hard to accept that a loving God could allow it. Again, I'll go into more detail later, but I do accept the free will argument (feeble as it seems) that good has no value without the option of wrong. In some ways, it's situations like the one you've just described that make the concept of hell and eternal punishment kind of a comfort - the people responsible for atrocities like that deserve nothing less.

I'll come back in a few hours and unpack my thoughts some more.

You're right, it is insulting to compare schizophrenics to that monster.

...am I the monster? Or God? Not quite clear.

(I have to run and catch a train here - I look forward to picking this up later!)

[Deusaeuri]

Not to mention the fact that scientists continue to discover whole planets, stars, and solar systems where our laws of physics don't apply. Then there are the materialshere on earththat disregard physics altogether.

There are no our laws of physics.

What about alternate universes?
I'm no theoretical physicist, but don't they have different laws of physics?

[Cosara]

Apparently so, since those apparently do not comply with the Laws of Physics as we know them.

Oh, look, the guy who doesn't know how to debate came back from retreating with his tail between his legs.

There is a such thing as getting off of NS for a little while.

[The-_Sicarii]

You'll have proof for this, then, of course.

I have evidence against the Atheist World View (IE, a world in which no god exists). The Foundation of the Atheist World View is the Big Bang. Well, I have to ask: What created the big bang? What created the cause of the cause. What created the cause of the cause of the cause. This is an infinite regression which makes it impossible for the Big Bang to have happened. At some point down the line, you'd have to have an uncaused cause to cause the causes of all of the causes that caused the Big Bang. It's simple logic: From nothing, nothing comes. Now, your rebuttle is "Where did god come from." well, God, existing outside of time and space and not having to comply with the Laws of Nature, is the uncaused cause. The Big Bang must comply with the laws of nature, making it impossible under the reason I stated above, however God does not comply with the laws of nature, and is therefor free from needing a cause or a creator.

If God does can freely violate the laws of nature, then God is omnipotent.

If God is omnipotent and benevolent, God is not aware of human existence (shown by the immense suffering in the world), and therefore, your claims to understand God cannot be true because God would never have shown his/her/itself to humanity.

If God is benevolent and aware of humanity, God is not omnipotent, because previously mentioned suffering has not been fixed

If God is aware of humanity and omnipotent, then God cannot possibly be benevolent, because God has either freely allowed evil and cruelty, or outright enforced it.

Where do you turn now?

I'm a Jewish-agnostic, by the way.

[Mirage]

You could just get a fly, put it in the refrigerator/icebox so that it hibernates (don't kill it), then rub your hands together and place it in your palm and "resurrect" it.
A bit tricky to do, but makes a decent magic trick to unsuspecting victims

Except I hate flies. Or any insects, for that matter, except for European honeybees (which are kind of fuzzy and cute).
Are there any other creatures I could use for this?

Well, you could get a polar bear, but i wouldn't recommend that...

(seriously though, i have only tried it with house flies)

[Koumakan Underground]

And there you have it. They haven't found any evidence, because they haven't bothered to look. I think it's a shame-- we could potentially discover a new discipline of science, but we're wasting our time making cats that glow in the dark (which is pretty cool, don't get me wrong, and it could potentially help scientists discover ways to cure genetic diseases, but still, it's the principle of the thing).

Haven't bothered to look? Are you shitting me? So we don't study astrophysics, cosmology, quantum mechanics, mathematics, physics, biology etc etc?

Did you not see the part where I said it would be a new discipline of science? Perhaps it occasionally would cross over with some of the other areas, but we certainly haven't finished experimenting in all of those fields. We may yet discover new things. In fact, we're discovering new things all the time, are we not? The point is, we're still learning. Yes, we know quite a bit, but there is still a great deal we have yet to learn. We must never stop asking questions, if we are to truly understand our universe.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Jesus Christ... is Batman?

I need to make a religion on that. Batmananity.

Baconism would be cooler. Not by much, as Batman is, by far, the greatest superhero ever. But bacon is cooler.

As an aside re bacon -

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/0 ... ostpopular

I agree. bacon is pretty awesome. tasty to!

[Esparmuran]

Voyeur...

the claim? My mother is catholic, and she used to say angels came down to protect us. And for the invisible part... well, I haven't seen any.

As for the deaths.

Well, were I a Protestant (and I'm not), I'd hazard a guess that God is saving those who die as death post-Jesus isn't as bad as life in a corrupted world. Since I'm not Protestant, however, those deaths are tragic but are hardly to be laid at the feet of God.

You're right on that point.

[The Rich Port]

Oh, look, the guy who doesn't know how to debate came back from retreating with his tail between his legs.

There is a such thing as getting off of NS for a little while.

There is also such a thing as ignoring every single question people ask you.

It's called being a cowardly debater.

What the fuck are you even doing here if you aren't paying attention to the debate?

AFKing in the middle of something is obnoxious and annoying EVERYWHERE.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

There are no our laws of physics.

Meh... i meant, laws of physics as we understand them. Shoot me.

nah...I like your pro-bacon stance

[Liriena]

Proof? Please? One can cloak one's ideology in religious rhetoric, but that does not makes one's ideology a religious ideology.

First of all...that's a pretty blatant "no true Scotsman". And second of all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gott_mit_uns

Also...eugenics, and the fascist and nationalsocialist (mis)interpretation of Darwinian evolutionary theory, are not in any way correlated to atheism. Darwinian evolutionism is not a "book" of the athiest "bible". Atheism lacks a central dogma, unlike religion. There are no atheist commandments. There is no central, absolutist atheist myth of the creation of the universe. There are no atheist prophecies, or rituals.

I know that there is no 'atheist scripture' although apparently, now, you do in fact have churches and priests (funny, that). And it is exactly that lack of a central dogma that totally makes all your 'no true scotsman' claims below absolutely, well, ridiculous.

We have associations and speakers, not churches or priests. Don't try to pull a tu quoque on atheism.
Also, my claims are not attempts at "no true Scotsman". They are factual refutations of your claim that genocidal regimes were inspired by atheism itself.

Perhaps 'fascist' is too broad a term, because, as you pointed out, it does encompass a broad range of ideologies and historical manifestations. Let's go with Nazism as our poster child for radical nationalism for now, 'mkay?

Nazi Germany was not primarily catholic. In fact, Hitler's ideas of genetic purity were entirely unrelated to religion. Furthermore, Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

Again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gott_mit_uns
Also, that one religious man fought against Hitler is meaningless. I'm pretty sure many people killed by Hitler's regime were atheists. Hell, I'm 100% certain that many of Stalin's victims were atheists.
Nazi Germany was not primarily catholic, no. But the regime itself earned the cooperation of Catholic and Lutheran authorities. Not to mention that Nationalsocialism had obvious theocratic tendencies. Hitler himself was no atheist, since his well-known fascination for the occult (along with other factors) makes it impossible.

1) I don't really give two shits if it was done in the name of any particular thing. The pragmatic, actual outworking of Stalinism, which had atheistic materialism as its guiding ideological star, was mass murder.

"The Soviet Union was the first state to have, as an ideological objective, the elimination of religion[1] and its replacement with universal atheism.[2][3] The communist regime confiscated religious property, ridiculed religion, harassed believers, and propagated atheism in schools.[4] The confiscation of religious assets was often based on accusations of illegal accumulation of wealth." From none other than Wiki : [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union
[/url]

Well, you should give a shit, since that was your initial claim: that atheism was an important source of inspiration for Stalinist crimes. You haven't proved such a thing. All you have proven so far is religious persecution during Stalin's rule, and you have claimed a correlation between atheism as a belief and that persecution, ignoring the nature of Stalin as a man, and the nature of his regime. Stalin's most definitive characteristic was not his atheism, but his paranoia. He saw everything as a threat to his power, and since Russia was always a strongly religious nation with theocratic tendencies, religious institution were just one of his many perceived threats. That he installed a cult of personality simultaneously with religious persecution should give you a hint.

Which is secularism (Rousseau's, not Locke's) taken to its logical conclusion. Stop lying. Thanks

Secularism according to one philosopher =/= atheism in general
Thanks.

Well, it didn't get one, so I guess everything's Ok, then.

Don't lie.

Since most crimes in the world are committed by theists rather than atheists, and since most nations with a large percentage of atheist citizens are not anarchic, impoverished, polluted bloodbaths...yeah, feel free to take that bullshit elsewhere, along with every single tired old talking point you've spewed.

That not every single atheist in the face of the Earth is in jail for committing every single offense known to man should be proof enough that atheist can be just as moral as everybody else without a god.
In fact, as Christopher Hitchens himself explained, one can get a basis for moral values from things as simple as human reason and solidarity.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Haven't bothered to look? Are you shitting me? So we don't study astrophysics, cosmology, quantum mechanics, mathematics, physics, biology etc etc?

I like you.. sort of.

Sort of?

[Koumakan Underground]

Except I hate flies. Or any insects, for that matter, except for European honeybees (which are kind of fuzzy and cute).
Are there any other creatures I could use for this?

Well, you could get a polar bear, but i wouldn't recommend that...

(seriously though, i have only tried it with house flies)

Huh... what about frogs? I hear that some of them freeze themselves to hibernate. I'd have to go up North to get one, though...