Does God exist?

[Transhuman Proteus]

What about people who die before or just after being born?

What purpose do they have in this 'test'?

They go to heaven.

What are they like in heaven? I'd hate to think there are dead babies littering the place, spoiling eternity with their perpetual soulful wailing.

Advantage Hell - No dead babies... Or any babies...

[Liriena]

What about people who die before or just after being born?

What purpose do they have in this 'test'?

They go to heaven.

Then your god has a double standard. He expects us to suffer in life, and be good and faithful, in order to reward us with Heaven...but then he rewards those who have done absolutely NOTHING in life with Heaven?

[Liriena]

I notice you are a Roger Ebert fan. I am also a Roger Ebert fan. Let's discuss movies sometime.

I'd like that.

[Neo Art]

Why don't you believe in the great Juju at the bottom of the sea?

He should believe in Odin and his fellow gods of Valhalla.

does nobody get that reference? Shame.

[Gallifrey Express]

This entire concept requires a natural, objective moral code, which doesn't exist. We aren't born with a moral code, we're born selfish little fucks who can't do anything to make himself the ruler of the world. Then we learn moral behavior through conditioning. What we learn may be completely different from what God wants, and so, without any understanding of what this objective morality that doesn't exist is, that person will go to hell. Fuck your god, he's a dick.

Indeed. I dislike the evangelist description of God. Hell, I disagree with their definition of God entirely. We may agree that He is triune, but that's about as close as we get - which is a major contributing factor to why I consider Protestants bibliolatrous (at best) non-Christians (in general).

But, there are several issues with your post.

We do learn moral behavior through conditioning. This is also known as culture. Religion is a part of culture. Therefore, religion helps to mold a person for the better (the implication "better" derived from your own words).

Morality is not, as you say, objective. It is, however, universal. I'm not saying that morality is the same for everyone. I'm saying that the moral perspective of an individual is applicable for everyone. For example, I am Eastern Orthodox. If I believe (and I do) that my salvation lies wholly beyond my direct control (hence the requirement to live as much like Jesus as I can manage), then my place in Heaven is not guaranteed. If this be true (and it is), then that means I could still, very well, go to Hell (so to speak). Applied universally, this moral perspective means that anyone, regardless of their faith or lack thereof, regardless of their sexuality or lack thereof, regardless of their list of sins (mine is likely longer) or lack thereof, could still go to Heaven.

We Orthodox have a saying to describe this moral universalism: there are some within the Church but without the Grace of God and there are some within the Grace of God but without the Church.

What I'm saying is that morality ain't objective. I agree with you. But it ain't subjective either. It doesn't change depending upon who I am thinking about. It ain't so flexible.

Well, it's subjective in the sense that in the end, morality is not the exact same for everyone, and is morphed by one's experiences. It's true that it's difficult to simply change this code from person to person, but it is subjective in the sense of being variable.

[Duvniask]

He should believe in Odin and his fellow gods of Valhalla.

does nobody get that reference? Shame.

Dawkins?

[Gallifrey Express]

He should believe in Odin and his fellow gods of Valhalla.

does nobody get that reference? Shame.

Dawkins?

[Duvniask]

does nobody get that reference? Shame.

Dawkins?

Just my words.

[Gallifrey Express]

Dawkins?

Just my words.

Well isn't that... You ninja'd me, just barely

[Neo Art]

does nobody get that reference? Shame.

Dawkins?

Yes, a brilliant little bit of improve. Someone tried to Pascal's Wager him by asking him at a lecture, "what if you're wrong?"

This was the result.

[Gallifrey Express]

Dawkins?

Yes, a brilliant little bit of improve. Someone tried to Pascal's Wager him by asking him at a lecture, "what if you're wrong?"

This was the result.

I've seen the full lecture, actually. He's quite the smart man.

[Liriena]

Yes, a brilliant little bit of improve. Someone tried to Pascal's Wager him by asking him at a lecture, "what if you're wrong?"

This was the result.

I've seen the full lecture, actually. He's quite the smart man.

You should watch the debates between Dinesh D'Souza and Christopher Hitchens. They are a beauty to behold...in the sense that Hitchens obliterates that pompous idiot.

[Xaxus]

because we were dangerously derailing another thread for the last 15 pages...

Do you believe that a God exists?

I believe that there are no supernatural deities. Science has better explained away all the various things that theists claim to be evidence for their god. And furthermore, considering the immense human suffering that exists today, a god would either have to be malevolent or incompetent:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" -Epicurus

Furthermore, I simply feel that those making the claim that a god exists have the burden of proof on their shoulders to solidly prove that there is a god, before I would even consider believing in such a thing. I do not consider "the <insert holy book here> say so" to be legitimate evidence, because that begs the question: why is that holy book relevant?

This post will probably be expanded as I elaborate more on my beliefs.

Your thoughts?

----

You can also use this thread to debate the merits of various religions, or religion in general.

I do not believe in god. I believe in the possibility that there is a race out there that has evolved to the point of maybe it being a possibility but I do not believe in it. After all, if God existed, why would he send his son down to earth to spark more wars and cause more problems to the world. Why would we have been created with the want the NEED to murder our fellow man in the name of god? Countries have gone to war and still conflict due to religious beliefs. If there was a God, then this would not be so, nor would he directly cause all of this.

[Menassa]

They go to heaven.

What are they like in heaven? I'd hate to think there are dead babies littering the place, spoiling eternity with their perpetual soulful wailing.

Advantage Hell - No dead babies... Or any babies...

Unless there is predestination.

Then hell would be full of Babies.

[Cosara]

2) So, this God knowingly enables us to commit horrifying acts against our fellow humans...and then he punishes us for it? He commits reckless indifference...but only holds us accountable?
Also, if God expects us to act good in life, and rewards good actions, why does he send good non-believers to Hell, and forgives all the sins of his believers, regardless of their gravity? If a loving and generous man in China, who has never heard of Christianity, has spent his life doing nothing but good deeds for his fellow human beings...why doesn't God reward him?
On another note...if God respects our free will and our personal responsibility, then why does he have us live in a world where natural phenomena, which we cannot control, constantly kill innocent people?

Finally...why is the concept of good versus evil necessary? Why is it necessary to create humans in a flawed state and ask us to improve ourselves, without his help, in order to earn a reward? Why is this even reasonable?

I believe in a purgatory called Limbo. This is where people who are not good enough to go to Heaven but too good to go to hell go. There they stay and learn their lesson until God allows them into heaven.

[The Rich Port]

I've seen the full lecture, actually. He's quite the smart man.

You should watch the debates between Dinesh D'Souza and Christopher Hitchens. They are a beauty to behold...in the sense that Hitchens obliterates that pompous idiot.

Seriously? I was waiting for it to happen.

They put up a random Christian apologetic with two shitty conspiracy movies under his belt vs. one of the lynchpins of secular humanism. What did everybody who watched it think was gonna happen?

That D'Souza was going to be credible for once?

[Gallifrey Express]

I've seen the full lecture, actually. He's quite the smart man.

You should watch the debates between Dinesh D'Souza and Christopher Hitchens. They are a beauty to behold...in the sense that Hitchens obliterates that pompous idiot.

I'm too busy watching Les Miserables.

[Cosara]

You should watch the debates between Dinesh D'Souza and Christopher Hitchens. They are a beauty to behold...in the sense that Hitchens obliterates that pompous idiot.

Seriously? I was waiting for it to happen.

They put up a random Christian apologetic with two shitty conspiracy movies under his belt vs. one of the lynchpins of secular humanism. What did everybody who watched it think was gonna happen?

^This. If your gonna have a debate about a topic, have competent people from both sides.

[Liriena]

You should watch the debates between Dinesh D'Souza and Christopher Hitchens. They are a beauty to behold...in the sense that Hitchens obliterates that pompous idiot.

Seriously? I was waiting for it to happen.

They put up a random Christian apologetic with two shitty conspiracy movies under his belt vs. one of the lynchpins of secular humanism. What did everybody who watched it think was gonna happen?

I particularly loved one particular Hitchslap.

D'Souza claimed that "there was no civilization before Christianity". Hitchens responded with a one-word refutation: China.

Simply beautiful.

[Caecuser]

2) So, this God knowingly enables us to commit horrifying acts against our fellow humans...and then he punishes us for it? He commits reckless indifference...but only holds us accountable?
Also, if God expects us to act good in life, and rewards good actions, why does he send good non-believers to Hell, and forgives all the sins of his believers, regardless of their gravity? If a loving and generous man in China, who has never heard of Christianity, has spent his life doing nothing but good deeds for his fellow human beings...why doesn't God reward him?
On another note...if God respects our free will and our personal responsibility, then why does he have us live in a world where natural phenomena, which we cannot control, constantly kill innocent people?

Finally...why is the concept of good versus evil necessary? Why is it necessary to create humans in a flawed state and ask us to improve ourselves, without his help, in order to earn a reward? Why is this even reasonable?

I believe in a purgatory called Limbo. This is where people who are not good enough to go to Heaven but too good to go to hell go. There they stay and learn their lesson until God allows them into heaven.

Does God define what is good and what is bad or are they separate from his power

[Transhuman Proteus]

You should watch the debates between Dinesh D'Souza and Christopher Hitchens. They are a beauty to behold...in the sense that Hitchens obliterates that pompous idiot.

Seriously? I was waiting for it to happen.

They put up a random Christian apologetic with two shitty conspiracy movies under his belt vs. one of the lynchpins of secular humanism. What did everybody who watched it think was gonna happen?

That D'Souza was going to be credible for once?

Maybe they were hoping God would intervene or something.

"We're sending D'Souza! If that doesn't warrant a miracle nothing does!"

[Menassa]

2) So, this God knowingly enables us to commit horrifying acts against our fellow humans...and then he punishes us for it? He commits reckless indifference...but only holds us accountable?
Also, if God expects us to act good in life, and rewards good actions, why does he send good non-believers to Hell, and forgives all the sins of his believers, regardless of their gravity? If a loving and generous man in China, who has never heard of Christianity, has spent his life doing nothing but good deeds for his fellow human beings...why doesn't God reward him?
On another note...if God respects our free will and our personal responsibility, then why does he have us live in a world where natural phenomena, which we cannot control, constantly kill innocent people?

Finally...why is the concept of good versus evil necessary? Why is it necessary to create humans in a flawed state and ask us to improve ourselves, without his help, in order to earn a reward? Why is this even reasonable?

I believe in a purgatory called Limbo. This is where people who are not good enough to go to Heaven but too good to go to hell go. There they stay and learn their lesson until God allows them into heaven.

That's nice and all that you believe that.... all sunshine and flowers.

But is that what The Scripture says?

[Cosara]

I believe in a purgatory called Limbo. This is where people who are not good enough to go to Heaven but too good to go to hell go. There they stay and learn their lesson until God allows them into heaven.

Does God define what is good and what is bad or are they separate from his power

This page should explain it.

[Liriena]

2) So, this God knowingly enables us to commit horrifying acts against our fellow humans...and then he punishes us for it? He commits reckless indifference...but only holds us accountable?
Also, if God expects us to act good in life, and rewards good actions, why does he send good non-believers to Hell, and forgives all the sins of his believers, regardless of their gravity? If a loving and generous man in China, who has never heard of Christianity, has spent his life doing nothing but good deeds for his fellow human beings...why doesn't God reward him?
On another note...if God respects our free will and our personal responsibility, then why does he have us live in a world where natural phenomena, which we cannot control, constantly kill innocent people?

Finally...why is the concept of good versus evil necessary? Why is it necessary to create humans in a flawed state and ask us to improve ourselves, without his help, in order to earn a reward? Why is this even reasonable?

I believe in a purgatory called Limbo. This is where people who are not good enough to go to Heaven but too good to go to hell go. There they stay and learn their lesson until God allows them into heaven.

That still wouldn't change the fact that God's standards for reward and punishment are awfully narcissistic and arbitrary, and that his entire system revolves around god himself creating humans flawed, and then alternating between being an abusive and an absent parent.

[The Rich Port]

Seriously? I was waiting for it to happen.

They put up a random Christian apologetic with two shitty conspiracy movies under his belt vs. one of the lynchpins of secular humanism. What did everybody who watched it think was gonna happen?

^This. If your gonna have a debate about a topic, have competent people from both sides.

... The irony...

It hurts my mind.

You're not just giving me brain tumors.

You're hurting my abstract thoughts.

You're bruising my ideas.