Inviolability

[Rotting Corpse]

Doesn't answer the question, does it?

I don't have a problem with imposition of order.

Liberal democracies do not last.

That's a fair statement. However, I will point out that they have lasted longer than any other type of system in the modern world so far.

Really? Longer than monarchism, theocracy, dictatorship, ect?

[Callisdrun]

Liberal democracies do not last.

That's a fair statement. However, I will point out that they have lasted longer than any other type of system in the modern world so far.

If you want to be objective about it, nothing really lasts. I mean, eventually the world itself won't really exist after the Sun dies. And since stars die at a faster rate than they are born, the universe will eventually consist of nothing but black holes consuming all remaining matter, until even they cease to exist and there's nothingness.

[Rotting Corpse]

If you want to be objective about it, nothing really lasts.

Then shoot yourself.

[Callisdrun]

I don't have a problem with imposition of order.

lrn2quote

Imposition of order is the framework of a government. You make a distinction that I do not believe exists. Almost all social animals have imposition of order of some kind. This is the root of government, though not as extensive as that of many human societies as many other social animals live in groups too small to need much more than rudimentary government.

[Rotting Corpse]

Imposition of order is the framework of a government.

Imposition of order is done all the time in social interactions without need of any government.

[Callisdrun]

If you want to be objective about it, nothing really lasts.

Then shoot yourself.

You're the one making the "x never lasts" argument and pretending it's some sort of valid reason. I was just pointing out that this isn't in and of itself a valid criticism, as technically, everything is temporary. Why don't you shoot yourself, since that which doesn't last is apparently not worth having and your existence is only temporary, after all? Your logic, not mine.

[Callisdrun]

Imposition of order is the framework of a government.

Imposition of order is done all the time in social interactions without need of any government.

You make a distinction between it and government. I don't. As the size of social group increases, so does that of its government.

[Rotting Corpse]

[As the size of social group increases, so does that of its government.

The size of the government only increases if the social group or the government make it so. The government doesn't grow all on it's own, it comes out of taxes or a planned economy.

[Callisdrun]

[As the size of social group increases, so does that of its government.

The size of the government only increases if the social group or the government make it so. The government doesn't grow all on it's own, it comes out of taxes or a planned economy.

You put the cart before the horse. Taxes are a result of a larger society and governments doing larger things. As the size of a society increases, so too does the government as it is no longer possible to manage the society as directly or by consensus. Taxes evolve out of the practice of pooling resources within the tribe.

But what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

[Rotting Corpse]

You put the cart before the horse. Taxes are a result of a larger society and governments doing larger things.

Taxes are a result of the government doing larger things; unless you're suggesting that the society instituted the tax to send resources to the government independent of it.

As the size of a society increases, so too does the government as it is no longer possible to manage the society as directly or by consensus.

You're right, the government grows to manage society.

[Tubbsalot]

It is acceptable to kill a person with good reason (like, say, they request it) and if their passing will not unduly affect any people connected to them.

Life is not sacred. Even a fly has life. The complex neural workings of the brain are what is important.

[Rotting Corpse]

The complex neural workings of the brain are what is important.

If we define them as important.

[Callisdrun]

You put the cart before the horse. Taxes are a result of a larger society and governments doing larger things.

Taxes are a result of the government doing larger things; unless you're suggesting that the society instituted the tax to send resources to the government independent of it.

As the size of a society increases, so too does the government as it is no longer possible to manage the society as directly or by consensus.

You're right, the government grows to manage society.

Social animals usually work communally, contributing their efforts and often resources to the group as a whole. Thus, the origin of taxation. As the society grows, so do the things it does. More organization is needed, especially once the group grows past the point where everyone in it knows each other on a personal level.

[Rotting Corpse]

Social animals usually work communally, contributing their efforts and often resources to the group as a whole. Thus, the origin of taxation.

Taxation is imposed.

[Tubbsalot]

The complex neural workings of the brain are what is important.

If we define them as important.

Well, yes, but I was referring to majority opinion. People say they care about life, but they really don't. Who's never smacked a fly? As I said, what matters to most people is that these creatures are mentally higher-order.

[Callisdrun]

Social animals usually work communally, contributing their efforts and often resources to the group as a whole. Thus, the origin of taxation.

Taxation is imposed.

So is order.

[Rotting Corpse]

So is order.

Order is imposed precedingly by society, not government.

[Peepelonia]

I notice many discussions about abortion, war, vegetarianism, etc, and in my opinion several of the arguments made concerning these matters are made on the premise that individuals have an inalienable right to life. Who here believes this? From where does that right derive, if you believe it? (belief in a higher power is an acceptable answer in my view) Furthermore, how do you define that right? How far does it extend? Under what circumstances is life justly ended? Ex) (does not reflect my own views) "I believe that all sentient life is sacred and that life begins at conception and can only justly end at natural death." Why do you think this way? Do you feel that you are able to live in a consistent manner with your views concerning this principle? If so, how do you do it?

Yep I belive this. I think what is fundemental is that we all are able to live how we please, this is the number one right.

Where does it come from? For the fact that we are sentiant creatures. We feel pain and loss, we grive we can be happy or sad, and we certianly become angry when told 'you can't do that'.

Yep it is not easy to live with such a belife, but I certianly try. The key of course being the golden rule, think before you act and it becomes a little easyer.

[Rotting Corpse]

Yep I belive this. I think what is fundemental is that we all are able to live how we please, this is the number one right.

For most people, living how they please involves disenfranchisement of others and imperialism on the part of their country.

[Callisdrun]

So is order.

Order is imposed precedingly by society, not government.

The imposition of Order is government.

[Peepelonia]

Yep I belive this. I think what is fundemental is that we all are able to live how we please, this is the number one right.

For most people, living how they please involves disenfranchisement of others and imperialism on the part of their country.

Well I disgree with that. I live how I wish, obviously within the bounds of the law, but I am not disenfranchised nor does the way I live cause others to be, I live in a democrasy.

What I mean is simply this. I can choose to live life how I wish to, I can get married or not, I can practice a religion or not, I can do anything that I want to do as long as it is not against the law nor does it impinge on others rights to do the same. In all of this nobody, absolutly nobody has any right to try to stop me.