Your Favorite Russian Leader?

[Soviet Russia Republic]

Yeltsin? Good leader?! There isn't a facepalm large enough to refute that assessment. *whalepalms*

Well, he brought democracy in Russia, did not he?

No. He also surrounded himself with a number of individuals that went out of their way to bring about corruption and break an already broken system to favor their hold on power. There's not a lack of reasoning behind why Yeltsin would become universally hated by people.

[Shofercia]

Was I the only person tempted to say Boris Gudunov?

Probably because he wasn't very good. He was kind of a mix between Gorbachev and Yeltsin.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

Peter the Great. Dragged the country out from a benighted feudal backwater into a modern nation (at least for its upper crust - the aristos and the new middle classes etc). Made the orthy church into something that works as another cog in its machinery for the state rather than the other way round. Laid the foundations for the development of Russia into a great power, able to fight Charles of Sweden, Frederick and Napoleon.

Only other leader who achieved something of this sort that I can think of is Mustapha Kemal Ataturk.

Actually, Peter's father and grandfather (or their wives, anyway) laid the foundations for modernization. Even Sophia contributed a bit. Despite how history has cast her, she was a pretty amazing woman. She effectively ruled the country in an age when royal women were supposed to send their lives locked in the top room of the palace having babies.

[Boer Republics (Ancient)]

Was I the only person tempted to say Boris Gudunov?

Probably because he wasn't very good. He was kind of a mix between Gorbachev and Yeltsin.

Beat the hell out of his immediate predecessor

[Vetalia]

Khruschev was a dick in foreign policy though, a massive one.

I don't really have any favourite Russian leaders, I don't know enough of them.

Yeah, that certainly played a role in his downfall.

[Shofercia]

Peter the Great. Dragged the country out from a benighted feudal backwater into a modern nation (at least for its upper crust - the aristos and the new middle classes etc). Made the orthy church into something that works as another cog in its machinery for the state rather than the other way round. Laid the foundations for the development of Russia into a great power, able to fight Charles of Sweden, Frederick and Napoleon.

Only other leader who achieved something of this sort that I can think of is Mustapha Kemal Ataturk.

Actually, Peter's father and grandfather (or their wives, anyway) laid the foundations for modernization. Even Sophia contributed a bit. Despite how history has cast her, she was a pretty amazing woman. She effectively ruled the country in an age when royal women were supposed to send their lives locked in the top room of the palace having babies.

Wasn't the case in Russia though. Let's not forget that the Romanovs were still using the tax system set in motion by St. Olga. And that women played a prominent role in the history of Russia, often as leaders; although I agree with you, Sophia is vastly underrated as a good ruler.

[The Nuclear Fist]

Khruschev was a dick in foreign policy though, a massive one.

I don't really have any favourite Russian leaders, I don't know enough of them.

Yeah, that certainly played a role in his downfall.

As a personal fan of Khrushchev, I can agree. He had all the subtlety and finesse of a clumsy sledgehammer, which made him piss poor at foreign policy. He should have left it to someone else, maybe Malenkov would have been useful in this situation.

[Arkiasis]

I guess Gorbachev for finally getting rid of the Soviet Union. But to be honest, they all sucked.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

Actually, Peter's father and grandfather (or their wives, anyway) laid the foundations for modernization. Even Sophia contributed a bit. Despite how history has cast her, she was a pretty amazing woman. She effectively ruled the country in an age when royal women were supposed to send their lives locked in the top room of the palace having babies.

Wasn't the case in Russia though. Let's not forget that the Romanovs were still using the tax system set in motion by St. Olga. And that women played a prominent role in the history of Russia, often as leaders; although I agree with you, Sophia is vastly underrated as a good ruler.

Going by Massie's biography of Peter the Great, prior to Peter's grandfather, high-class women were never seen by anybody but close relatives, other household women and their husbands. On the rare occasions when they did go out (for coronations, for example,) they did so under a large canopy. During Alexis' time, his wife was actually seen in public, but only on rare occasions, and the rest of the royal women stayed locked up in the palace's top room (there was some particular word for it in Russian which I can't recall at the moment.)

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Rasputin coz fuck whores...as well as poison, bullets, stab wounds and drowning. Also a murderous beard of noxious vapourosity.

[Shofercia]

Wasn't the case in Russia though. Let's not forget that the Romanovs were still using the tax system set in motion by St. Olga. And that women played a prominent role in the history of Russia, often as leaders; although I agree with you, Sophia is vastly underrated as a good ruler.

Going by Massie's biography of Peter the Great, prior to Peter's grandfather, high-class women were never seen by anybody but close relatives, other household women and their husbands. On the rare occasions when they did go out (for coronations, for example,) they did so under a large canopy. During Alexis' time, his wife was actually seen in public, but only on rare occasions, and the rest of the royal women stayed locked up in the palace's top room (there was some particular word for it in Russian which I can't recall at the moment.)

Not sure if that's accurate though. If we're to take a look at the rulers during the Romanov Zenith, (1613-1801) we have nine guys and five girls. That's quite good for a European Nation during that time period

[Dooom35796821595]

angela merkel
You know she is

[OMGeverynameistaken]

Going by Massie's biography of Peter the Great, prior to Peter's grandfather, high-class women were never seen by anybody but close relatives, other household women and their husbands. On the rare occasions when they did go out (for coronations, for example,) they did so under a large canopy. During Alexis' time, his wife was actually seen in public, but only on rare occasions, and the rest of the royal women stayed locked up in the palace's top room (there was some particular word for it in Russian which I can't recall at the moment.)

Not sure if that's accurate though. If we're to take a look at the rulers during the Romanov Zenith, (1613-1801) we have nine guys and five girls. That's quite good for a European Nation during that time period

Massie is regarded as highly reliable by the professor of Russian history at the university I went to. Generally speaking, that particular philosophy seems to have applied to Romanov-era Russia before Peter's reign. Russian attitudes towards women seem to have reformed fairly quickly. IIRC the book mentions that one of Peter's social reforms was a requirement for noblemen to bring their wives to court with them, since he was trying to imitate Louis XIV's court at Versailles, and you can't have a good debauch without some ladies present.

[Shofercia]

Not sure if that's accurate though. If we're to take a look at the rulers during the Romanov Zenith, (1613-1801) we have nine guys and five girls. That's quite good for a European Nation during that time period

Massie is regarded as highly reliable by the professor of Russian history at the university I went to. Generally speaking, that particular philosophy seems to have applied to Romanov-era Russia before Peter's reign. Russian attitudes towards women seem to have reformed fairly quickly. IIRC the book mentions that one of Peter's social reforms was a requirement for noblemen to bring their wives to court with them, since he was trying to imitate Louis XIV's court at Versailles, and you can't have a good debauch without some ladies present.

Hmm, well I know that Russian Women played a key role in Russian Society. For instance, Anastasia Romanova in the Court of Ivan the Great was a pivotal figure, and has a very positive role in Russian History. When she was murdered, Ivan the Quatro went from being "the Great" to being "the Terrible". On the other hand, you're right about Massie. Thus, as historians there's one solution: something happened between 1560 and 1613 that was very harmful to women in power in Russia. The question is - what and when? We know that in 1560, women ruled. And that in 1613, they didn't. I'm thinking about several scenarios: first is a massive spread of anti-women hysteria, propagated by the murderers of Anastasia Romanova. Second would be the result of a falling out between Alexandra Golovina, the wife of Michael Skopin-Shuisky, and Basil Shuisky, who likely assassinated her husband, and when she started investigating, sent her to a convent. Third, it could've been the result of the undertakings of Mnisek.

But I agree, you cannot have a good debauch without women

[Dokrib Choseon]

Lenin.

[The Moors of Fire]

Trotsky, he was a great idealist, and knew where his values were.

[Dokrib Choseon]

Trotsky, he was a great idealist, and knew where his values were.

Right with the petite bourgeoisie. ^___^

Not contesting the "idealist" bit...

[Peisistratia]

Catherine was hated by the serfdom.
Peter was good.
Trotsky was good.
Lenin was good.
Stalin was terrible.
Khrushchev was good.
Brezhnev was terrible.
Gorbachev tried his best.

My favorite is Sophia Romanov. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sop ... Russia.jpg

[Paparian]

Leon Trotsky.
He may not have been president or held any post of the same stature but he was an excellent organiser.

Too bad he did not have the ruthlessness or the determination of Stalin to take over from Lenin.

Who knows,the USSR might have been a very different nation had Trotsky took over.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

Massie is regarded as highly reliable by the professor of Russian history at the university I went to. Generally speaking, that particular philosophy seems to have applied to Romanov-era Russia before Peter's reign. Russian attitudes towards women seem to have reformed fairly quickly. IIRC the book mentions that one of Peter's social reforms was a requirement for noblemen to bring their wives to court with them, since he was trying to imitate Louis XIV's court at Versailles, and you can't have a good debauch without some ladies present.

Hmm, well I know that Russian Women played a key role in Russian Society. For instance, Anastasia Romanova in the Court of Ivan the Great was a pivotal figure, and has a very positive role in Russian History. When she was murdered, Ivan the Quatro went from being "the Great" to being "the Terrible". On the other hand, you're right about Massie. Thus, as historians there's one solution: something happened between 1560 and 1613 that was very harmful to women in power in Russia. The question is - what and when? We know that in 1560, women ruled. And that in 1613, they didn't. I'm thinking about several scenarios: first is a massive spread of anti-women hysteria, propagated by the murderers of Anastasia Romanova. Second would be the result of a falling out between Alexandra Golovina, the wife of Michael Skopin-Shuisky, and Basil Shuisky, who likely assassinated her husband, and when she started investigating, sent her to a convent. Third, it could've been the result of the undertakings of Mnisek.

But I agree, you cannot have a good debauch without women

I would say that it most likely had to do with people wanting to distance the Tsars from their wives. After all, Ivan went nuts because somebody offed his favorite wife. The boyars might have remembered this, and decided that it was best to just keep women out of politics period. That or one of the early Romanov Tsars really disliked women.

[Serrland]

I'm tempted to say Kerensky.

Maybe Empress Elizabeth.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

I'm tempted to say Kerensky.

Maybe Empress Elizabeth.

Everybody loves the party empress.

[Kvatchdom]

I guess Gorbachev for finally getting rid of the Soviet Union. But to be honest, they all sucked.

Russian leaders generally, not only the Soviet ones only.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

I guess Gorbachev for finally getting rid of the Soviet Union. But to be honest, they all sucked.

Russian leaders generally, not only the Soviet ones only.

But everybody knows that either Russian history started in 1917 or all of the Tsars were corrupt and oppressive people who demanded that all of their clothes be woven with the tears of serf children.

[Shofercia]

Hmm, well I know that Russian Women played a key role in Russian Society. For instance, Anastasia Romanova in the Court of Ivan the Great was a pivotal figure, and has a very positive role in Russian History. When she was murdered, Ivan the Quatro went from being "the Great" to being "the Terrible". On the other hand, you're right about Massie. Thus, as historians there's one solution: something happened between 1560 and 1613 that was very harmful to women in power in Russia. The question is - what and when? We know that in 1560, women ruled. And that in 1613, they didn't. I'm thinking about several scenarios: first is a massive spread of anti-women hysteria, propagated by the murderers of Anastasia Romanova. Second would be the result of a falling out between Alexandra Golovina, the wife of Michael Skopin-Shuisky, and Basil Shuisky, who likely assassinated her husband, and when she started investigating, sent her to a convent. Third, it could've been the result of the undertakings of Mnisek.

But I agree, you cannot have a good debauch without women

I would say that it most likely had to do with people wanting to distance the Tsars from their wives. After all, Ivan went nuts because somebody offed his favorite wife. The boyars might have remembered this, and decided that it was best to just keep women out of politics period. That or one of the early Romanov Tsars really disliked women.

It's probably either the Boyars wanting to distances Csars from their wives, or something I said. I doubt any of the early Romanov Csars disliked women. Alexis loved women, in more ways than one Theodore didn't really have the power to ban women. Michael respected women, so I doubt it's one of them.