The Economist Says Affirmative Action Is Bad Unsurprise

[Mavorpen]

So you don't believe race is a sociological issue.

How utterly naive of you.

He has said indirectly that he does.

He has said, basically, that "certain ethnicities/races are more likely to be impoverished" - which strongly implies that it is a sociological issue.

The reason AA targets minorities is because they are more likely to be poor. But there are also poor whites - who get screwed over - and middle- and upper-class minorities - who get an advantage from AA even though they might not need it.

Wow. You might want to actually read through the ENTIRE discussion before replying to a post like that. It makes you look dishonest.

[The Steel Magnolia]

The issue is that affirmative action, which indirectly is meant to level the playing field of socioeconomic factors for college/university, is being used instead of a more directly helpful action.

My issue with affirmative action is that it lets inferior minority students, or prospective employees take the spots of superior students or prospective employees, if the superior students happened to be from a racial majority/masculine sex.
As the article said, Asian students can be over 400 points superior than blacks and still be edged out by the black person. This is obviously racial discrimination, and since I'm not racist I don't support racial discrimination.

What?

No. That's not how AA works.

[Phocidaea]

Clearly the "Affirmative Action" they have in the US is different to "Positive Discrimination Affirmative Action" in the UK. Mandating Diversity makes it non-colourblind.

Because in every single case, diversity just means "MOAR BLACK PPLZ!"

Oh yes, diversity can never be increased with more white people.

Given that white people are the majority - albeit a decreasing one - in the US, it's much more difficult...

[Mavorpen]

Because in every single case, diversity just means "MOAR BLACK PPLZ!"

Oh yes, diversity can never be increased with more white people.

Given that white people are the majority - albeit a decreasing one - in the US, it's much more difficult...

Congratulations, you can make completely obvious observations that don't refute the post at all.

[Phocidaea]

Given that white people are the majority - albeit a decreasing one - in the US, it's much more difficult...

Congratulations, you can make completely obvious observations that don't refute the post at all.

I didn't say it refuted the post at all. In fact, I agree completely that there are cases where "diversity" can be increased with white (male)s

But those cases are a small minority.

The other thing I would like to note - how come there have been virtually no arguments about gender-based AA, only race?

[Kromar]

The issue is that affirmative action, which indirectly is meant to level the playing field of socioeconomic factors for college/university, is being used instead of a more directly helpful action.

My issue with affirmative action is that it lets inferior minority students, or prospective employees take the spots of superior students or prospective employees, if the superior students happened to be from a racial majority/masculine sex.
As the article said, Asian students can be over 400 points superior than blacks and still be edged out by the black person. This is obviously racial discrimination, and since I'm not racist I don't support racial discrimination.

What?

No. That's not how AA works.

Where did I miss the mark?

[The Steel Magnolia]

There's no quota system, there's no "unqualified" black people taking jobs from "qualified" white folks.

All it means is, in the US, that between two otherwise equal candidates you will take diversity into account. Which means AA could very will give a white man the job over a minority woman, just as it could the reverse.

[Mavorpen]

What?

No. That's not how AA works.

Where did I miss the mark?

Affirmative Action is simply taking race, sex, gender, etc. into consideration. Making any of those the dominant factor, and not ability is a whole different ballgame that. "Unqualified" individuals being chosen over qualified individuals occurs independently of Affirmative Action.

[Evraim]

Because in every single case, diversity just means "MOAR BLACK PPLZ!"

Oh yes, diversity can never be increased with more white people.

Given that white people are the majority - albeit a decreasing one - in the US, it's much more difficult...

Is the percentage of white people decreasing? I thought it was increasing, especially due to immigration from Latin America and the fact that American Latinos tend to reproduce more than other demographics, which most likely has something to do with Catholicism.

[Kromar]

Where did I miss the mark?

Affirmative Action is simply taking race, sex, gender, etc. into consideration. Making any of those the dominant factor, and not ability is a whole different ballgame that. "Unqualified" individuals being chosen over qualified individuals occurs independently of Affirmative Action.

I'm not worried about unqualified minorities being chosen, I'm worried about less qualified minorities being chosen. As that article said, asians who score 400 points on the SAT above a black person are less likely to be accepted for admission than said black person.

There's no quota system, there's no "unqualified" black people taking jobs from "qualified" white folks.

All it means is, in the US, that between two otherwise equal candidates you will take diversity into account. Which means AA could very will give a white man the job over a minority woman, just as it could the reverse.

That is obviously untrue. AA comes in to play in more instances than in a choice between the theoretical "totally equal except race" pair of individuals. Asians who score 400 points above a black person on the SAT are less likely to be accepted into a university than said black person.

[Mavorpen]

Affirmative Action is simply taking race, sex, gender, etc. into consideration. Making any of those the dominant factor, and not ability is a whole different ballgame that. "Unqualified" individuals being chosen over qualified individuals occurs independently of Affirmative Action.

I'm not worried about unqualified minorities being chosen, I'm worried about less qualified minorities being chosen. As that article said, asians who score 400 points on the SAT above a black person are less likely to be accepted for admission than said black person.

Which isn't affirmative action.

[Cosara]

I'm not worried about unqualified minorities being chosen, I'm worried about less qualified minorities being chosen. As that article said, asians who score 400 points on the SAT above a black person are less likely to be accepted for admission than said black person.

Which isn't affirmative action.

If that is not affirmative action, then please explain to us your definition of it.

[Kromar]

I'm not worried about unqualified minorities being chosen, I'm worried about less qualified minorities being chosen. As that article said, asians who score 400 points on the SAT above a black person are less likely to be accepted for admission than said black person.

Which isn't affirmative action.

So the Economist just threw in a non sequitor? How is that not affirmative action?

[Wamitoria]

Which isn't affirmative action.

If that is not affirmative action, then please explain to us your definition of it.

What Kromar describes is actual violation of the controls set in place by the courts to prevent ridiculous abuses of affirmative action.

[Mavorpen]

Which isn't affirmative action.

If that is not affirmative action, then please explain to us your definition of it.

Already have. Go read.

[Mavorpen]

Which isn't affirmative action.

So the Economist just threw in a non sequitor? How is that not affirmative action?

Yes. This is obvious as shit.

Did you know that whites are three times as likely to be accepted to the top private universities as Asians? Let me guess, Affirmative Action at its best, right? Oh wait...

[Greed and Death]

Which isn't affirmative action.

If that is not affirmative action, then please explain to us your definition of it.

It is counting diversity as a factor in admissions/employment etc.
Now at least 3 justices think it is quotas in disguised.

[Geilinor]

Wow...

Fine, I'll hold your hand.

If you acknowledge that race is a sociological problem, then you admit that it needs to be solved. So tell me. Why in the world can't we address it simply because there is a larger problem? What sensible, mature person uses an argument akin to "okay, I see that your finger has been chopped off. Unfortunately, we can only deal with one problem at a time, so we'll deal with the biggest threat." No, forget about addressing all spectrums of the problem. Only focus on one thing because it's of bigger consequence. Why can't we address both? Seriously, why? Are people that incompetent? If so we might as well throw in the towel right fucking now.

What a childish, pathetic, and irresponsible worldview.

The issue is that affirmative action, which indirectly is meant to level the playing field of socioeconomic factors for college/university, is being used instead of a more directly helpful action.

My issue with affirmative action is that it lets inferior minority students, or prospective employees take the spots of superior students or prospective employees, if the superior students happened to be from a racial majority/masculine sex.
As the article said, Asian students can be over 400 points superior than blacks and still be edged out by the black person. This is obviously racial discrimination, and since I'm not racist I don't support racial discrimination.

Affirmative action should apply to all minorities. It isn't just, "HELP THE BLACK PEOPLE!".

[Saiwania]

Is the percentage of white people decreasing? I thought it was increasing, especially due to immigration from Latin America and the fact that American Latinos tend to reproduce more than other demographics, which most likely has something to do with Catholicism.

Yes, White people are decreasing globally as a percentage because of lower birth rates in majority White countries and no, not all Latinos are White because a lot of them do not have White skin or any significant European ancestry. Mestizos are only half White at best, being descended from Spanish conquistadors and South American natives.

[Mavorpen]

Is the percentage of white people decreasing? I thought it was increasing, especially due to immigration from Latin America and the fact that American Latinos tend to reproduce more than other demographics, which most likely has something to do with Catholicism.

Yes, White people are decreasing globally as a percentage because of lower birth rates in majority White countries and no, not all Latinos are White because a lot of them do not have White skin or any significant European ancestry. Mestizos are only half White at best, being descended from Spanish conquistadors and South American natives.

Those are the conditions for being White?

I must say, this is a fantastic demonstration of the absurdity of race as a valid taxonomic system for humans.

[Geilinor]

Is the percentage of white people decreasing? I thought it was increasing, especially due to immigration from Latin America and the fact that American Latinos tend to reproduce more than other demographics, which most likely has something to do with Catholicism.

Yes, White people are decreasing globally as a percentage because of lower birth rates in majority White countries and no, not all Latinos are White because a lot of them do not have White skin or any significant European ancestry. Mestizos are only half White at best, being descended from Spanish conquistadors and South American natives.

Not all Latinos are white, but many are. A plurality of Mexico's population is white.

[Evraim]

Yes, White people are decreasing globally as a percentage because of lower birth rates in majority White countries and no, not all Latinos are White because a lot of them do not have White skin or any significant European ancestry. Mestizos are only half White at best, being descended from Spanish conquistadors and South American natives.

The United States government considers most Mestizos white to my knowledge. I stopped caring when it became too difficult to tell skin colors apart. That happened around kindergarten. As such, I rely on preexisting institutions to determine my view of sociological constructs such as race. Of course, if any of my Mestizo friends ask me to recognize them as brown or black, I have no problem obliging. According to the bureaucrats, I'm white. This is all I know of race, and significantly more than I care to know.

[Geilinor]

Yes, White people are decreasing globally as a percentage because of lower birth rates in majority White countries and no, not all Latinos are White because a lot of them do not have White skin or any significant European ancestry. Mestizos are only half White at best, being descended from Spanish conquistadors and South American natives.

The United States government considers most Mestizos white to my knowledge. I stopped caring when it became too difficult to tell skin colors apart. That happened around kindergarten. As such, I rely on preexisting institutions to determine my view of sociological constructs such as race. Of course, if any of my Mestizo friends ask me to recognize them as brown or black, I have no problem obliging.

The government puts "Hispanics" under "race", so...

[Saiwania]

Those are the conditions for being White? I must say, this is a fantastic demonstration of the absurdity of race as a valid taxonomic system for humans.

What do you propose should be the criteria for being White or any x race? It is common sense that to be White, you need to have White skin and what is White skin most commonly associated with? European ancestry.

[Evraim]

The government puts "Hispanics" under "race", so...

Not in Texas. Every single form mentions "Hispanic Whites" and "Non-Hispanic Whites". We also have "African-Americans", "Asian and Pacific Islanders", and "Native Americans". People from the Middle East are thrown into the "Non-Hispanic White" category. I'm not exactly certain where people from the Indian Subcontinent go.

What do you propose should be the criteria for being White or any x race? It is common sense that to be White, you need to have White skin and what is White skin most commonly associated with? European ancestry.

Mestizos have European ancestry. In fact, most African Americans have European ancestry. We're all snowmen.