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Mike the Progressive
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:10 pm

Mavorpen wrote:
Mike the Progressive wrote:
*yawns* And I'm use to some posters just saying "biased sources are biased" without actually providing anything to back there shit up.

When a small child throws a tantrum, you ignore it, because it's a child being a child. If someone gives you a link to a blog and presents it as a reputable source, you are under no obligation to say anything other than pointing out the fact that the source is utter shit.


Of course not, but if you visit the blog, the person who wrote those posts hyperlinked the statistics he/she used to acceptable institutions and those in return cite some primary sources (government records, for example).

So you can certainly debate how those facts are used, but at the end of the day it doesn't diminish the actual numbers. Unemployment remained high, private consumption low and the increase in productivity was attributed to the government printing money and spending it.

I still think it was a necessary move to prepare the country for war and to calm domestic turmoil, but to claim the New Deal in itself saved the country from economic ruin? That's certainly debatable. WW2 and the sheer destruction of most of the industrialized world did.

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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:12 pm


Your response to me declaring your sources are shitty are to give me...more shitty sources?
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:13 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:I still think it was a necessary move to prepare the country for war and to calm domestic turmoil, but to claim the New Deal in itself saved the country from economic ruin? That's certainly debatable. WW2 and the sheer destruction of most of the industrialized world did.

It's a good thing that's not what's being debated. What's being debate is whether the New Deal prolonged the Depression.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Freiheit Reich
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Postby Freiheit Reich » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:26 pm

Mavorpen wrote:

Your response to me declaring your sources are shitty are to give me...more shitty sources?


So using facts presented by economists is not worthy of being considered a good source?

Whether FDR prolonged or didn't prolong the Great Depression is not black or white. It is speculation which is why these sources are opinion articles. However, they are presenting strong facts to back up their cases.

Articles saying FDR is a hero and saved the USA from the Great Depression with his brilliant policies are likely in the opinion section as well.

Saying the Toronto Bluejays won a baseball game or Michael Jackson is dead are news stories easy to prove. Blaming or praising politicians policies is not so easy but cases can be presented using facts.

What facts presented in the sources given are wrong? You need to ask that.
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Mike the Progressive
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:27 pm

Mavorpen wrote:
Mike the Progressive wrote:I still think it was a necessary move to prepare the country for war and to calm domestic turmoil, but to claim the New Deal in itself saved the country from economic ruin? That's certainly debatable. WW2 and the sheer destruction of most of the industrialized world did.

It's a good thing that's not what's being debated. What's being debate is whether the New Deal prolonged the Depression.


To an extent, it probably did. Because the country didn't exit out of the depression until WW2 was over.

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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:28 pm

Freiheit Reich wrote:So using facts presented by economists is not worthy of being considered a good source?

No. Rather, I would prefer if you provided me with sources that were published in scholarly journals.
Freiheit Reich wrote:Whether FDR prolonged or didn't prolong the Great Depression is not black or white. It is speculation which is why these sources are opinion articles. However, they are presenting strong facts to back up their cases.

Then it shouldn't be a problem to find these "facts" in the form of a peer reviewed source.
Freiheit Reich wrote:Articles saying FDR is a hero and saved the USA from the Great Depression with his brilliant policies are likely in the opinion section as well.

I haven't presented anything from an opinion section in this discussion. So, stop pissing at the air please.
Freiheit Reich wrote:What facts presented in the sources given are wrong? You need to ask that.

No I don't. I need to ask, "Why did this person not give me a reputable source, if they're so confident they are right?"
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:30 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:
Mavorpen wrote:It's a good thing that's not what's being debated. What's being debate is whether the New Deal prolonged the Depression.


To an extent, it probably did. Because the country didn't exit out of the depression until WW2 was over.

Wrong. The Great Depression was for all intents and purposes over before WWII. There was a recession before the Depression ended (1937-38 IIRC), but I've yet to see any evidence that the New Deal caused it.
Last edited by Mavorpen on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Mike the Progressive
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:34 pm

Mavorpen wrote:
Mike the Progressive wrote:
To an extent, it probably did. Because the country didn't exit out of the depression until WW2 was over.

Wrong. The Great Depression was for all intents and purposes over before WWII. There was a recession before the Depression ended (1837-38 IIRC), but I've yet to see any evidence that the New Deal caused it.


Just saying wrong does not make it wrong...

And the '37-38 recession was caused by a mixture of tax increases and public spending decreases.

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National Socialists of America
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Founded: Dec 23, 2012
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Postby National Socialists of America » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:37 pm

Premier Obama
Total Military Manpower: 14,033,657

Wehrmacht:
Total: 9,284,396
Active Duty: 780,752
Reserves: 8,503,644

Kriegsmarine:
Total: 3,182,934
Active Duty: 71,679
Reserves: 3,111,255
Total Ships: 473

Luftwaffe:
Total: 1,566,327
Active Duty: 189,062
Reserves: 1,377,265

Oh really? Which "oil" nation has America invaded and conquered lately? You must mean America, which will overtake the Middle East as the world's largest energy producer in 5 years. That America will invade countries?

Pathetic how people actually start to believe their own mindless BS.

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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:37 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:
Mavorpen wrote:Wrong. The Great Depression was for all intents and purposes over before WWII. There was a recession before the Depression ended (1837-38 IIRC), but I've yet to see any evidence that the New Deal caused it.


Just saying wrong does not make it wrong...

And the '37-38 recession was caused by a mixture of tax increases and public spending decreases.

No, the fact that it's wrong makes it wrong. The Great Depression ended in 1941.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Merodin
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Founded: Nov 15, 2011
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Postby Merodin » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:37 pm

Hillary Clinton 2016. :bow:
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Freiheit Reich
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Postby Freiheit Reich » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:39 pm

Mavorpen wrote:
Freiheit Reich wrote:So using facts presented by economists is not worthy of being considered a good source?

No. Rather, I would prefer if you provided me with sources that were published in scholarly journals.
Freiheit Reich wrote:Whether FDR prolonged or didn't prolong the Great Depression is not black or white. It is speculation which is why these sources are opinion articles. However, they are presenting strong facts to back up their cases.

Then it shouldn't be a problem to find these "facts" in the form of a peer reviewed source.
Freiheit Reich wrote:Articles saying FDR is a hero and saved the USA from the Great Depression with his brilliant policies are likely in the opinion section as well.

I haven't presented anything from an opinion section in this discussion. So, stop pissing at the air please.
Freiheit Reich wrote:What facts presented in the sources given are wrong? You need to ask that.

No I don't. I need to ask, "Why did this person not give me a reputable source, if they're so confident they are right?"


OK, here you go (bunch of links to scholarly articles here):

http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2012/0 ... n_the.html

A couple about the Great Depression you can read:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/421169

http://www.econ.ucla.edu/files/senate_t ... hanian.pdf
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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:41 pm

Rand Paul, and Paul Ryan would be logical, but the Libertarians are my favorite. Reps would have more of a chance to win. I'd pick them over Hilary Clinton.
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Mike the Progressive
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:41 pm

Mavorpen wrote:
Mike the Progressive wrote:
Just saying wrong does not make it wrong...

And the '37-38 recession was caused by a mixture of tax increases and public spending decreases.

No, the fact that it's wrong makes it wrong. The Great Depression ended in 1941.


"I'm saying it's right, so it has to be right!"

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Charax
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Postby Charax » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:46 pm

Because it makes a difference who runs. Yeah right.

Clinton/Kerry v.s. Christie/Jeb Bush
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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:47 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:
Mavorpen wrote:No, the fact that it's wrong makes it wrong. The Great Depression ended in 1941.


"I'm saying it's right, so it has to be right!"

"Rather than prove you wrong, I'm going to pretend you're wrong!"

So, want to stop acting like you're 5 years old, please?
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Frisivisia
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Postby Frisivisia » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:48 pm

The New Sea Territory wrote:Rand Paul, and Paul Ryan would be logical, but the Libertarians are my favorite. Reps would have more of a chance to win. I'd pick them over Hilary Clinton.

Rand Paul is an idiot with stupid ideas and Paul Ryan is the same PLUS he's a loser. And neither of them have any charisma at all whatsoever.
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The Emerald Dawn
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Postby The Emerald Dawn » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:50 pm

Frisivisia wrote:
The New Sea Territory wrote:Rand Paul, and Paul Ryan would be logical, but the Libertarians are my favorite. Reps would have more of a chance to win. I'd pick them over Hilary Clinton.

Rand Paul is an idiot with stupid ideas and Paul Ryan is the same PLUS he's a loser. And neither of them have any charisma at all whatsoever.

But, but, P50X

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Wikkiwallana
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Postby Wikkiwallana » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:52 pm

The New Sea Territory wrote:Rand Paul, and Paul Ryan would be logical

Under what premises?
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Postby Myrensis » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:53 pm

The New Sea Territory wrote:Rand Paul, and Paul Ryan would be logical, but the Libertarians are my favorite. Reps would have more of a chance to win. I'd pick them over Hilary Clinton.


A Paul/Ryan ticket would be a dream come true for Democrats. :p

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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:53 pm

Freiheit Reich wrote:OK, here you go (bunch of links to scholarly articles here):

http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2012/0 ... n_the.html

A couple about the Great Depression you can read:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/421169

http://www.econ.ucla.edu/files/senate_t ... hanian.pdf

Only one of those is a scholarly source.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Mike the Progressive
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:27 pm

Mavorpen wrote:
Mike the Progressive wrote:
"I'm saying it's right, so it has to be right!"

"Rather than prove you wrong, I'm going to pretend you're wrong!"

So, want to stop acting like you're 5 years old, please?


Don't be absurd. 5 years olds don't know anything about this.

But I dispute this notion that the Great Depression ended as a result of the New Deal. You could contribute it to military spending, which I said before (along with a post-war world) but before that? No.

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Mike the Progressive
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:29 pm

Mavorpen wrote:
Freiheit Reich wrote:OK, here you go (bunch of links to scholarly articles here):

http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2012/0 ... n_the.html

A couple about the Great Depression you can read:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/421169

http://www.econ.ucla.edu/files/senate_t ... hanian.pdf

Only one of those is a scholarly source.


Which concluded that the "New Deal labor and industrial policies did not lift the economy out of the Depression..."

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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:29 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:Don't be absurd. 5 years olds don't know anything about this.

That's a problem, isn't it?
Mike the Progressive wrote:But I dispute this notion that the Great Depression ended as a result of the New Deal. You could contribute it to military spending, which I said before (along with a post-war world) but before that? No.

What? Just...what? I didn't say the New Deal ended the Great Depression. By the way, the United States joined the war in 1941. I didn't say that the Great Depression ended before the United States entered the war, I simply said it ended before the war itself was over.
Last edited by Mavorpen on Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:30 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:
Mavorpen wrote:Only one of those is a scholarly source.


Which concluded that the "New Deal labor and industrial policies did not lift the economy out of the Depression..."

Which isn't being debated.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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