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Rich Getting Richer in the U.S

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Densaner
Minister
 
Posts: 2750
Founded: Jul 19, 2005
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Densaner » Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:50 pm

Parhe wrote:
Densaner wrote:

Because they restrict the free market and the right of a union to negotiate freely with an employer through collective bargaining. I thought the GOP liked free markets. Only where employees cannot negotiate freely for a decent wage it seems. :eyebrow:

I do not see how it restricts free market, could you please elaborate on that? I didn't even know unions were essential for a market to be considered a free market. Also why does a union have a right to negotiate freely? I mean rather, where is it said they should have that right. So the right for a union to collectively bargin is more important than the right of individuals to decide whether or not to join an organization just so they can work and provide for themselves? In the end it is best for the corporations to pay good wages to it's works so that they have a market. Of course that does turn a bit when laws and regulations change so much over areas.

And no, the GOP is in support of things like regulations and, though maybe not as much as the Democratic Party, the GOP leans in favor of some regulations.


If you live a free society then people should be able to negotiate freely on a singular or collective basis for wages. Why shouldn't a union be allowed to negotiate freely? I'll tell you why. Because those who have don't want to give unions bargaining power. I agree it is in the best interests of corporations to pay good wages. And they do. Have you seen the pay and perks the average CEO gets? However when it comes to people on the shop floor a different rule applies. You won't get an economic system that works by paying some people hundred of millions, and millions of people peanuts. Feel free to support it. Don't expect things to improve though. :lol2:
Last edited by Densaner on Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ainin
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13979
Founded: Mar 05, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Ainin » Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:02 pm

News at eleven: Pizza is food and Obama is a democrat.
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Kamchastkia
Senator
 
Posts: 3943
Founded: Jan 16, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kamchastkia » Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:19 pm

greed and death wrote:
Kamchastkia wrote:3. LARGE COPRATIONS DON'T RULE THIS COUNTRY! - until they do.

Evidence: (Off the top of my head) Super PACs

Didn't the super PACs lose ? I thought Obama's 2012 victory would prove super Pacs do not have that effect on elections.

Obama isn't a bitch for corporations? Since when?

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Blakk Metal
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6737
Founded: Jun 07, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Blakk Metal » Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:53 pm

Next on Post-Seventies Facts, most pop music is electronic and death row will never reach equilibrium.

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Phocidaea
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5316
Founded: Jul 21, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Phocidaea » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:18 pm

Big fucking surprise.

I think this has been pretty much universally known for decades - it's just a matter of whether you defend this as a good thing (i.e. you're either rich and selfish or an idiot), are ambivalent, or realize it's bad (i.e. are willing to look past dogmatic worship of large businesses).
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Daistallia 2104
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7848
Founded: Jan 14, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby Daistallia 2104 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:18 pm

greed and death wrote:
Kamchastkia wrote:3. LARGE COPRATIONS DON'T RULE THIS COUNTRY! - until they do.

Evidence: (Off the top of my head) Super PACs

Didn't the super PACs lose ? I thought Obama's 2012 victory would prove super Pacs do not have that effect on elections.


That'd explain the email from corporate bragging on how well their PAC did last November.
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The Rich Port
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38094
Founded: Jul 29, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby The Rich Port » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:56 pm

Olivaero wrote:Obviously They have been working harder than the poor I mean that's what capitalism does isn't it? It rewards Hard work with money the harder some one works the more money they get.... right?


If you count stealing as hard work, which a lot of NS cappies do, then yes.

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Trollgaard
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9778
Founded: Mar 01, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Trollgaard » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:05 pm

Who cares about wealth gaps? Work harder, get famous, win the lottery. Take your pick.

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The Rich Port
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38094
Founded: Jul 29, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby The Rich Port » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:08 pm

Trollgaard wrote:Who cares about wealth gaps? Work harder, get famous, win the lottery. Take your pick.


Because winning the lottery or being famous is a productive career choice, amirite?

"Working harder" is a vague action, dontchathink? Should the janitor scrub the floors more? Should the electrician be more... Electric-ish? Should the cashier ring people up faster?

How are any of those things going to make their financial situations better?

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Trollgaard
Powerbroker
 
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Founded: Mar 01, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Trollgaard » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:11 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
Trollgaard wrote:Who cares about wealth gaps? Work harder, get famous, win the lottery. Take your pick.


Because winning the lottery or being famous is a productive career choice, amirite?

"Working harder" is a vague action, dontchathink? Should the janitor scrub the floors more? Should the electrician be more... Electric-ish? Should the cashier ring people up faster?

How are any of those things going to make their financial situations better?



Add in get lucky, have good friends/acquaintences.

Working harder can cover a lot of things, like the examples you mentioned, or getting a second job.

Hmm, add in being frugal, investing in yourself, etc, etc and all tha jazz.

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SpudEmpire
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 154
Founded: Mar 25, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby SpudEmpire » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:30 pm

And the sky's freaking blue, what else is new? Meanwhile three months out of the Army, and I haven't landed a single interview, starting to think I should've stayed in the damn Army.

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Dargovezna
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 52
Founded: Jul 20, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Dargovezna » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:33 pm

It's all part of the plan, really, at this point.
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SaintB
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21792
Founded: Apr 18, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby SaintB » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:34 pm

I've said it before: The only problem with the economy is that the people on top that have it all have discovered that it is more profitable to tell everyone that there is a problem with the economy and hold it above everyone's heads like some kid of threat - so they can make less people work harder and longer for less pay and benefits.
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United Kingdom of Muffins
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Founded: Sep 08, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby United Kingdom of Muffins » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:36 pm

SpudEmpire wrote:And the sky's freaking blue, what else is new? Meanwhile three months out of the Army, and I haven't landed a single interview, starting to think I should've stayed in the damn Army.

I hate to say it, but yeah. If you can't get a job lined up in a military related career your only fall back is the military again.
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Eladisia
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 16
Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Eladisia » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:37 pm

Trollgaard wrote:Working harder can cover a lot of things, like the examples you mentioned, or getting a second job.

Hmm, add in being frugal, investing in yourself, etc, etc and all tha jazz.

A flippant attitude arguing a vigorous work ethic?

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Libertarian California
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Posts: 10637
Founded: May 31, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Libertarian California » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:38 pm

The closing of tax loopholes and the end of corporate welfare and subsidies would be a good start.
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SpudEmpire
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 154
Founded: Mar 25, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby SpudEmpire » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:40 pm

United Kingdom of Muffins wrote:
SpudEmpire wrote:And the sky's freaking blue, what else is new? Meanwhile three months out of the Army, and I haven't landed a single interview, starting to think I should've stayed in the damn Army.

I hate to say it, but yeah. If you can't get a job lined up in a military related career your only fall back is the military again.

Two Deployments to A-Stan had completely worn me out....but yeah I'm stating to lean towards the I made a huge mistake category by leaving the Army.

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United Kingdom of Muffins
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Posts: 1158
Founded: Sep 08, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby United Kingdom of Muffins » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:40 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:Stupid Digital Revolution, giving everyone personal computers, cell phones, and other gadgets. >:(


That's another thing that irks me. New technologies are developed every year that literally destroys industries (creative destruction), should we oppose their development? Should we bankroll certain jobs with the hopes of keeping them even though they've been rendered useless?

(bit of a late post)
I think that if wages are raised in all regions of the economy it's possible to have a low true creation economy (i.e. making computers/drilling oil), by recycling the wages earned to give to the next step. Then collected taxes get pumped back into education or business subsidizing creating a new entry point for currency, further balancing the system. This could of course lead to limited possible growth though.
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Kaizakhstan
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 110
Founded: May 07, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Kaizakhstan » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:42 pm

No surprise. We're only ranked 10 in terms of total economic freedom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_economic_freedom

But hey, this is what you get for letting business get involved in politics. Big corporations lobby for more restrictions to limit their competition, like WalMart with Obamacare.
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United Kingdom of Muffins
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Founded: Sep 08, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby United Kingdom of Muffins » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:42 pm

SpudEmpire wrote:
United Kingdom of Muffins wrote:I hate to say it, but yeah. If you can't get a job lined up in a military related career your only fall back is the military again.

Two Deployments to A-Stan had completely worn me out....but yeah I'm stating to lean towards the I made a huge mistake category by leaving the Army.

Also, try to apply for older males they value military service more than most modern Americans.
Pope Muffins
"Pretty girls digging prettier women" The Who, 5:15, from the album Quadrophenia
"Has God forgotten what I have done for him?" Louis XIV Of France

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Distruzio
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23841
Founded: Feb 28, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Distruzio » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:55 am

The Progressive Society wrote:What do you think of the article,


Meh.

and the rising inequality in the U.S?


I'm comfortable with it.
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Azurand
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1242
Founded: Dec 19, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Azurand » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:59 am

So..? Is it a bad thing?
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Risottia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54742
Founded: Sep 05, 2006
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Risottia » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:19 am

The Progressive Society wrote:During the recession and recovery the upper class managed to get even wealthier

...same all across the world, buddy.

Hey but TRICKLE-DOWN ECONOMY IS GOOD FOR EVERYONE, INVISIBLE HANDJOB OF THE FREE-MARKET FAIRY REGULATES ALL, A RISING TIDE LIFTS ALL BOATS, AND PUBLIC DEBT ABOVE 90% SENDS YOU INTO STRAIGHT INTO RECESSION, AND ANYONE WHO SAYS OTHERWISE IS A STALINIST!

Seriously, does anyone believe that bullshit anymore?
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Essos
Diplomat
 
Posts: 635
Founded: Apr 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Essos » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:15 am

SpudEmpire wrote:
United Kingdom of Muffins wrote:I hate to say it, but yeah. If you can't get a job lined up in a military related career your only fall back is the military again.

Two Deployments to A-Stan had completely worn me out....but yeah I'm stating to lean towards the I made a huge mistake category by leaving the Army.


Seek security work. Half of my coworkers are former service.

Densaner wrote:
Parhe wrote:I do not see how it restricts free market, could you please elaborate on that? I didn't even know unions were essential for a market to be considered a free market. Also why does a union have a right to negotiate freely? I mean rather, where is it said they should have that right. So the right for a union to collectively bargin is more important than the right of individuals to decide whether or not to join an organization just so they can work and provide for themselves? In the end it is best for the corporations to pay good wages to it's works so that they have a market. Of course that does turn a bit when laws and regulations change so much over areas.

And no, the GOP is in support of things like regulations and, though maybe not as much as the Democratic Party, the GOP leans in favor of some regulations.


If you live a free society then people should be able to negotiate freely on a singular or collective basis for wages. Why shouldn't a union be allowed to negotiate freely? I'll tell you why. Because those who have don't want to give unions bargaining power. I agree it is in the best interests of corporations to pay good wages. And they do. Have you seen the pay and perks the average CEO gets? However when it comes to people on the shop floor a different rule applies. You won't get an economic system that works by paying some people hundred of millions, and millions of people peanuts. Feel free to support it. Don't expect things to improve though. :lol2:


The issue with unions is that they like to make membership mandatory. That's not at all freedom, except for the freedom to not work in the field in question. Right to work laws guarantee that union membership cannot be a prerequisite for employment in all or most positions. This is clearly a good thing. I do not choose to give twenty bucks a week to a union to get a fifty cent an hour pay raise. I'll live with what I've got and not waste money on things I don't need.

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Duvniask
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6337
Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:16 am

Kaizakhstan wrote:No surprise. We're only ranked 10 in terms of total economic freedom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_economic_freedom

But hey, this is what you get for letting business get involved in politics. Big corporations lobby for more restrictions to limit their competition, like WalMart with Obamacare.


What I find funny, is that most (all?) of the countries on the list above the US. have lower levels of Gini than the US.
Last edited by Duvniask on Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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