Rich Getting Richer in the U.S

[Khadgar]

I said IF Mexico could become like Singapore in business and crime.

Why use Singapore as my shining example?

Ease of doing business: #1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_do ... ness_index


Corruption Perceptions Index 2012 (shows how anti-corrupt a nation is)

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2012/results/

Singapore #5, USA #19


Best nation for business (World Bank)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11671839

Singapore remains the best country in which to run a business, according to an annual report by the World Bank.

The Asian nation has come top of the World Bank's Doing Business 2011 study, which rates 183 countries on the ease in which they allow firms to operate.

Oh, this makes 7 years in a row!!

http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking-ne ... n-20121023

And yet rich people aren't going there in droves yet. You still need to explain this before I even begin to give you a single iota of plausibility to this statement.

There are good reasons why most people don't go there to live. Reasons that no amount of money, or taxes, will change.

Wild guess, how much does an acre of land cost?

[The Black Forrest]

And yet rich people aren't going there in droves yet. You still need to explain this before I even begin to give you a single iota of plausibility to this statement.

There are good reasons why most people don't go there to live. Reasons that no amount of money, or taxes, will change.

Wild guess, how much does an acre of land cost?

Property tax rates.

http://www.iras.gov.sg/irashome/page04.aspx?id=12186

[Seangoli]

And yet rich people aren't going there in droves yet. You still need to explain this before I even begin to give you a single iota of plausibility to this statement.

There are good reasons why most people don't go there to live. Reasons that no amount of money, or taxes, will change.

Wild guess, how much does an acre of land cost?

I'll give you hint.

The lists that he gave about singapore aren't the only lists it is the highest on.

[Khadgar]

Wild guess, how much does an acre of land cost?

Property tax rates.

http://www.iras.gov.sg/irashome/page04.aspx?id=12186

I cannot be reading that right. 20% property tax annually on residential?

[Greed and Death]

Property tax rates.

http://www.iras.gov.sg/irashome/page04.aspx?id=12186

I cannot be reading that right. 20% property tax annually on residential?

20% of the annual value.
Annual value means rental income, including what the rental income would be if vacant or owner occupied. Also if owner occupied you get a lower rate.

Basically puts it in line with their income tax.

[The Black Forrest]

I could have sworn it was. Upon looking it up, it was co-founder Saverin. After looking him up, he appears to be even more of a narcissistic ass than Zuckerberg, and even less what would expect to be the norm for any sensible person.

Saverin is smart and I applaud him for his choice. I wish more wealthy people would leave the USA to send politicians a wake up message.

Some treated Saverin like a traitor which he was not. He was a man that felt he deserved to enjoy the fruits of his labors. Ayn Rand would be proud.

Rand?

What was Rand's net worth?

[Pope Joan]

Rich people love recessions, they can get what they want extra cheap.

Of course, we have been larding these "job creators" with giveaways for years now.

They already have done whatever job creation they are going to do (how many houses and yachts can you own, anyway?). A BBC reporter said that the UK hedgefund managers were spending their ill gotten wealth in the pleasure palaces of Ibeza, since they already had everything else they wanted.

There's your job creation: high priced hookers in Spain.

[The Black Forrest]

Rich people love recessions, they can get what they want extra cheap.

Of course, we have been larding these "job creators" with giveaways for years now.

They already have done whatever job creation they are going to do (how many houses and yachts can you own, anyway?). A BBC reporter said that the UK hedgefund managers were spending their ill gotten wealth in the pleasure palaces of Ibeza, since they already had everything else they wanted.

There's your job creation: high priced hookers in Spain.

You have to give them credit though.

The lower classes think they have to protect them.

[Pope Joan]

Rich people love recessions, they can get what they want extra cheap.

Of course, we have been larding these "job creators" with giveaways for years now.

They already have done whatever job creation they are going to do (how many houses and yachts can you own, anyway?). A BBC reporter said that the UK hedgefund managers were spending their ill gotten wealth in the pleasure palaces of Ibeza, since they already had everything else they wanted.

There's your job creation: high priced hookers in Spain.

You have to give them credit though.

The lower classes think they have to protect them.

Amazingly easy to dupe a lot of them, isn't it? The Jim crow laws in the south accomplished the same thing, setting poor whites against blacks, when their real enemies were the wealthy.

[Grave_n_idle]

Don't hate, congratulate.

We live in a (borderline) firstworld nation where some people die every year from hunger, and some die from lack of healthcare.

We're not talking about a paradigm where everyone has enough, and some people are doing slightly better - we're talking about a class war, where the rich have taken everything they can take. Fuck congratulating someone for climbing over a pile of corpses.

[Parhe]

Besides America there are many nations with high or good standards of living that do not tax the hell out of people. Especially for the top seven percentile in which average life standards do not matter as much. So if America starts taxing the hell out of the rich there are plenty of other nations with good standards of living they can go to and not tax the hell of them.

Top 10 http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-te ... e-map.html

Top end tax rates: http://www.gfmag.com/tools/global-datab ... rates.html

Compare in order of quality of life:

1) Norway 47.8%
2) Australia 45%
3) Netherlands 52%
4) US 35%
5) New Zealand 33%
6) Canada 48%
7) Ireland 48%
Liechtenstein 29%
9) Germany 45%
10) Sweden 56.6

Take yer pick. You're either in New Zealand which is in the middle of nowhere, or Liechtenstein.

Nice list but it doesn't exactly apply to my post for several reasons. One, to the wealthy seven percent it probaly doesn't matter really matter as in most developed nations and some not developed nations for the money they have they can probably still afford their current life status. Another the whole thing I was reaspondng to was If the nation of America started to, implying they do not use current tax rates as your post compares, tax the hell out of people. The last part of which is a subjective comment. In my opinion it isn't exactly the hell out unless it is about a flat 65%, which I know by your list if above the world's current highest. Though perhaps i mean at the moment no country taxes "the hell" out of rich people yet. For a progressive tax I am not sure what I would consider.

[The Black Forrest]

Don't hate, congratulate.

We live in a (borderline) firstworld nation where some people die every year from hunger, and some die from lack of healthcare.

We're not talking about a paradigm where everyone has enough, and some people are doing slightly better - we're talking about a class war, where the rich have taken everything they can take. Fuck congratulating someone for climbing over a pile of corpses.

Indeed. I paper had an article where it reported in 2011 7% owned 63% of the income.

It's interesting that suggesting people get food and basic health care translates in "those lazy fucks want Maserati's and palatial estates!"

[Seangoli]

Saverin is smart and I applaud him for his choice. I wish more wealthy people would leave the USA to send politicians a wake up message.

Some treated Saverin like a traitor which he was not. He was a man that felt he deserved to enjoy the fruits of his labors. Ayn Rand would be proud.

Rand?

What was Rand's net worth?

She was also grotesquely hypocritical, taking advantage of the same system she was speaking out against. If the society she espoused actually existed, she would be one of the starving many who would have died quite quickly.

Of course, she was also completely vapid and her philosophy was vacant, but that's a different issue all together.

[4years]

During the recession and recovery the upper class managed to get even wealthier here in the states. Read here http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/art ... g-recovery

I know this is old news, even though its a new article. But it makes you think about how bad wealth gaps are in America, and what we need to do to overcome them.

What do you think of the article, and the rising inequality in the U.S?

Capitalists gonna capitalism.

[The Black Forrest]

During the recession and recovery the upper class managed to get even wealthier here in the states. Read here http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/art ... g-recovery

I know this is old news, even though its a new article. But it makes you think about how bad wealth gaps are in America, and what we need to do to overcome them.

What do you think of the article, and the rising inequality in the U.S?

Capitalists gonna capitalism.

Capitalists gonna crony capitalism

[Redenstaat]

What do you expect from a system that keeps out the new and supports the old?

If it isn't the Federal government keeping a person from starting a business, it's the state, and if not the state, the local. I know in my hometown, where there's increasingly more homeless people wandering around, there's been a vote to bring a casino in to where the horse track used to be every year now. And every year, the wonderful money and jobs we'd get from it is voted down, because the ridiculous zoning laws of the town basically give control to these old people and their xenophobic values - not to mention these old city council members are all financially okay and have jobs.

On top of that, we keep raising the minimum wage, which is a problem of the "heart in the right place" but consequences that add to the original problem. Companies like WalMart loved the minimum wage because it crowded out smaller stores that couldn't keep up, and once those stores are gone, yeah, the new and current WalMart employees get paid more, but there's fewer employees. (In the last case, WalMart generally paid their employees above the minimum wage, so there was not even a wage increase benefit).

Regulations that try to do good do more harm - for instance, emissions regulations don't just stop at how many emissions a product or a business can have, but insist that the business or the company buy specific, super expensive parts that are made through government contract, meaning the makers of the part benefit while screwing everybody else. This can be seen in New York's Taxi medallion system, which keeps out competitors to the benefit of the reigning cab services through expensive bids on the ability to run cabs.

France basically has this problem as well - those who have jobs are paid really well and live good lifestyles, but good luck finding a job if you're younger than 25, lack a degree, etc etc.

[Greed and Death]

Don't hate, congratulate.

We live in a (borderline) firstworld nation where some people die every year from hunger, and some die from lack of healthcare.

We're not talking about a paradigm where everyone has enough, and some people are doing slightly better - we're talking about a class war, where the rich have taken everything they can take. Fuck congratulating someone for climbing over a pile of corpses.

I told the poor people haha.

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

What do you expect from a system that keeps out the new and supports the old?

If it isn't the Federal government keeping a person from starting a business, it's the state, and if not the state, the local. I know in my hometown, where there's increasingly more homeless people wandering around, there's been a vote to bring a casino in to where the horse track used to be every year now. And every year, the wonderful money and jobs we'd get from it is voted down, because the ridiculous zoning laws of the town basically give control to these old people and their xenophobic values - not to mention these old city council members are all financially okay and have jobs.

On top of that, we keep raising the minimum wage, which is a problem of the "heart in the right place" but consequences that add to the original problem. Companies like WalMart loved the minimum wage because it crowded out smaller stores that couldn't keep up, and once those stores are gone, yeah, the new and current WalMart employees get paid more, but there's fewer employees. (In the last case, WalMart generally paid their employees above the minimum wage, so there was not even a wage increase benefit).

Regulations that try to do good do more harm - for instance, emissions regulations don't just stop at how many emissions a product or a business can have, but insist that the business or the company buy specific, super expensive parts that are made through government contract, meaning the makers of the part benefit while screwing everybody else. This can be seen in New York's Taxi medallion system, which keeps out competitors to the benefit of the reigning cab services through expensive bids on the ability to run cabs.

France basically has this problem as well - those who have jobs are paid really well and live good lifestyles, but good luck finding a job if you're younger than 25, lack a degree, etc etc.

This is why we need to abandon reforming capitalism, and instead replace it with a free society: a communist society.

[Redenstaat]

What do you expect from a system that keeps out the new and supports the old?

If it isn't the Federal government keeping a person from starting a business, it's the state, and if not the state, the local. I know in my hometown, where there's increasingly more homeless people wandering around, there's been a vote to bring a casino in to where the horse track used to be every year now. And every year, the wonderful money and jobs we'd get from it is voted down, because the ridiculous zoning laws of the town basically give control to these old people and their xenophobic values - not to mention these old city council members are all financially okay and have jobs.

On top of that, we keep raising the minimum wage, which is a problem of the "heart in the right place" but consequences that add to the original problem. Companies like WalMart loved the minimum wage because it crowded out smaller stores that couldn't keep up, and once those stores are gone, yeah, the new and current WalMart employees get paid more, but there's fewer employees. (In the last case, WalMart generally paid their employees above the minimum wage, so there was not even a wage increase benefit).

Regulations that try to do good do more harm - for instance, emissions regulations don't just stop at how many emissions a product or a business can have, but insist that the business or the company buy specific, super expensive parts that are made through government contract, meaning the makers of the part benefit while screwing everybody else. This can be seen in New York's Taxi medallion system, which keeps out competitors to the benefit of the reigning cab services through expensive bids on the ability to run cabs.

France basically has this problem as well - those who have jobs are paid really well and live good lifestyles, but good luck finding a job if you're younger than 25, lack a degree, etc etc.

This is why we need to abandon reforming capitalism, and instead replace it with a free society: a communist society.

I don't think the answer would include giving the state the complete ability (it already has it to an extent) to decide who gets rich and who stays poor, seeing as how that is already happening and getting worse the farther the U.S moves from capitalism.

[Libertarian California]

Didn't the super PACs lose ? I thought Obama's 2012 victory would prove super Pacs do not have that effect on elections.

But...but...corporations....and trillions of dollars....and puppets...and buying elections...and....corporations....and...and...

FASCIST IMPERIALIST AMERIKKKAN!

Gets old fast.

[AiliailiA]

We live in a (borderline) firstworld nation where some people die every year from hunger, and some die from lack of healthcare.

We're not talking about a paradigm where everyone has enough, and some people are doing slightly better - we're talking about a class war, where the rich have taken everything they can take. Fuck congratulating someone for climbing over a pile of corpses.

Indeed. I paper had an article where it reported in 2011 7% owned 63% of the income.

You're not the only one to get this muddled up. Only the most recent.

The wealthiest 7% have 63% of the wealth. I.e. assets not income. The dividing line is household wealth of $836,033. Above that are the "seven percent" and their average wealth is much much higher.

As it says in the article, the gap has widened since before the recession because middle-middle class people have most of their wealth tied up in a home while wealthier people own more stocks and other financial instruments.

During the study period, Standard & Poor's 500 stock index rose by 34 percent, while the Standard & Poor's/Case-Shiller index for home prices fell by 5 percent.

It's interesting that suggesting people get food and basic health care translates in "those lazy fucks want Maserati's and palatial estates!"

Someone living only on government benefits can afford to drive a car, or they can afford to rent a one-bedroom house. But not both.

[Napkiraly]

This is why we need to abandon reforming capitalism, and instead replace it with a free society: a communist society.

I don't think the answer would include giving the state the complete ability (it already has it to an extent) to decide who gets rich and who stays poor, seeing as how that is already happening and getting worse the farther the U.S moves from capitalism.

That's not what communism is.

[Redenstaat]

I don't think the answer would include giving the state the complete ability (it already has it to an extent) to decide who gets rich and who stays poor, seeing as how that is already happening and getting worse the farther the U.S moves from capitalism.

That's not what communism is.

What it essentially means is government owned means of production.

[AiliailiA]

Top 10 http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-te ... e-map.html

Top end tax rates: http://www.gfmag.com/tools/global-datab ... rates.html

Compare in order of quality of life:

1) Norway 47.8%
2) Australia 45%
3) Netherlands 52%
4) US 35%
5) New Zealand 33%
6) Canada 48%
7) Ireland 48%
Liechtenstein 29%
9) Germany 45%
10) Sweden 56.6

Take yer pick. You're either in New Zealand which is in the middle of nowhere, or Liechtenstein.

Nice list but it doesn't exactly apply to my post for several reasons. One, to the wealthy seven percent it probaly doesn't matter really matter as in most developed nations and some not developed nations for the money they have they can probably still afford their current life status. Another the whole thing I was reaspondng to was If the nation of America started to, implying they do not use current tax rates as your post compares, tax the hell out of people. The last part of which is a subjective comment. In my opinion it isn't exactly the hell out unless it is about a flat 65%, which I know by your list if above the world's current highest. Though perhaps i mean at the moment no country taxes "the hell" out of rich people yet. For a progressive tax I am not sure what I would consider.

The rate of the top income tax bracket isn't a very meaningful measure of how much tax high earners actually pay. It depends on what income that cuts in at and what deductions are available ... and by the maths of marginal taxation systems is ALWAYS lower than the top marginal rate.

For instance, in the US the top rate is 35% (increasing to 39.6% this year) but even at a million dollars of annual income and taking no deductions at all, an earner would pay an effective income tax of under 21%. Because of the cap on income assessment for the payroll tax, the combination of payroll and income tax is pretty much flat at 20 to 21% whatever the income above $106,000.

The other thing a rich person thinking of "fleeing taxes" would need to consider is capital gains tax or its local equivalent. Because that's where most of the super-rich get their increasing wealth from: not working, but owning stuff which appreciates in value.

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

That's not what communism is.

What it essentially means is government owned means of production.

Actually, that's pretty much the exact opposite of what it is.

Please take the time to make sure that you know what you're talking about, before you talk about it. It saves a lot of people--yourself not the least--a lot of time.