Will the British Government ever learn?

[Chestaan]

I think a lot of economists in 20 years time will point out the terrible nature of some of the economic policies certain European countries have pursuing the last few years.

20 years from now? Plenty are pointing it out already!

[Godwintopia]

because of course a free trade agreement with the UK and not, say, the EU: the largest economy in the world, is so much more tempting.

A free trade agreement works both ways. I am a balancing the total export possibility against the possibility of losing internal markets due to foreign competions and the loss of tariff revenue from foreign imports being tariffed.

As a general rule free trade is a win/lose equation while protectionism is a lose/win equation. So being able to be flexible in your decision to adopt either policy in regard to particular nations is rather important.

Tarifs during the Great Depression achieved exactly what? Even if the US was an autarchy (which it wasn't) I still fail to see what is has and would have possibly achieved (in the sense of positive, long and short term, national and global economic growth).

Maybe subject matter for a different thread?

It is fairly difficult to measure against a counter-factual.

Protectionism logically has a positive effect overall because it reduces the proliferation of surperflous foreign trade thus increasing total efficiancy because trade is inefficiant. To buy what you can produce yourself is nothwithstanding geographic/technological limitations invariably inefficiant.

However the greater the volume of trade in the world the more money that can be made by trading, money earned naturally at the expense of both sides of the equation. This works in the favour of trading countries and at the expense of producer countries.

[Personal Freedom]

The truth is it doesn't really matter anymore whether a policy works or not. The decisions of many politicians on the right and the left alike are based more on often centuries old ideologies than what actually works.

Or they all vote against something because one party thinks it is good... Or they are bought by donors...

[Souseiseki]

I
NSG? Why is the government going ahead with its failing plan?

because they're fucking idiots driven by their own broken fucking ideology (one of the strongest arguments for which is now revealed to have been based on fudged data and basic math errors) instead of anything that actually works in real and don't fucking care how many lives are ruined, how many people are killed and how much damage they do to the country in the process because they either actually legitimately believe this bullshit or have direct financial gain from it

[Souseiseki]

Well I think that if we leave the EU unemployment would get better

alternatively, don't fucking vote for a government that will deliberately pursue and continue to pursue policies that will wreck the economy

because all those Eastern Europeans that steel jobs from them would have to go home

"steel jobs"? is this a hilarious pun or are you serious?

it's kinda funny actually. you know why they're coming here for jobs? because now they got governments that spent half their time slabbering over how fucking awesome margaret thatcher was and how great neo-liberalism and austerity is and woah what do you fucking know now they don't have jobs either.

e: also i need to wonder about the term stealing jobs. this isn't the soviet union son, you're not entitled to a job, they're not "your" jobs and multinational corporations have no obligation to you.

Council house waiting lists would automatically reduce,

by how much? maybe if we didn't sell off 2m+ homes (1/3 of which are now in the hands of private landlords, some with with 40+ to their name) without building any replacements, for a start, we'd probably have enough homes. i don't want to assume you're a tory/UKIP voter, but if you are, you are basically responsible for half (possible most of) the problems you're about to bitch about, up to and including our presence in the EU. and the fact you're not getting asked about it now. and i will blame you. yes you personally. i mean just sayin'.

waiting lists for NHS hospital operations would reduce.

alternatively, stop cutting NHS funding and trying to privatize it

Schools and dole offices would notn't need 18 different interpreters

the only thing i can think of for that is "boo hoo. you're still going to need them."

public transport might not be so over crowded

oh god lol

Britain would save £50m every single day that could be poured into making schools and hospitals better, and austerity measures might not need to bite so hard.

i know you have a source for this out there :-)

they don't need to bite so hard, as is. have you noticed they're not working? have you noticed that even the big pro-austerity institutions like the IMF have turned around and said "wow you fucking idiots have you noticed it's not working?" i mean i'm just saying.

Deluded pro EU people could emigrate to where the hell they liked if they wished to. German and French would still want to keep pouring their cars into Britain, and so they would not impose taxes on our products we sell to them, hence they would spark a trade war which neither them NOR us could afford so a trade / import tax war will not happen as they sell us more stuff than we sell them! The fishing industry would RETURN to Britain and create thousands of jobs again, and the price of fish would fall due to getting our territorial waters back!

CLOSE THE BORDERS, DECLARE WAR ON ICELAND, FARAGE 2015

We might even become prosperous like NORWAY and SWITZERLAND are by forming a free trade agreement as is what is expected. If we became prosperous like Norway and Switzerland are, that's alright with me baby.

we want all of the benefits of the E.U. and none of the downsides pls

If we would be worse off outside Europe why are they so desperate to keep us in this expensive club.

that's the question we keep wondering when people tell us scotland would be worse off outside the UK and is a drain on the uk

The answer is because we put more in than we take out.

oddly enough, the answer is the same

They try to put fear in us by saying it would cost us jobs but the truth is any jobs that are created are taken by eastern Europeans which Business's want to keep because they keep earnings down and they make more profit.

so what you're saying is that businesses will (in often illegal ways) do what's best for them at the expense of the people and of the country at large? hmm. now i'm not saying making britain polenrein won't solve the problem, but maybe the problem and solution lies elsewhere? o:

Every country should have a say, after all we were told it was a trade agreement and never a United States of Europe.

That's just my thoughts.

hold a referndu- oh

[Forsakia]

November 2012 - 'the NHS is holding up despite financial pressures and disruption from reforms. However, cracks are emerging, with longer waiting times in accident and emergency, and the financial difficulties of more providers being exposed.' http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publication ... government

December 2012 - 'Treasury figures showed NHS spending in 2009/10 was £99.8bn, in 2010/11 it was £102bn, and in 2011/12 £104.3bn. But once inflation is taken into account, the figures are, based on 2011/12 prices, £105.1bn in 2009/10; £104.4bn in 2010/11 – a fall of 0.6 per cent; and £104.3bn in 2011/12, a further fall of 0.1 per cent. Although the falls are tiny percentages, they amount to £800m.' http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 95976.html

You didn't put it in a graph, so it's not valid.

It's data, graphs are a handy way of displaying data but it's the use of data that's important.

So the massive cuts are 0.7% after adjusting for inflation. So they're increasing it but not fast enough to keep up with inflation.

To put it in a little perspective though, that puts it in line with what Labour had it at in 2007ish in inflation-adjusted terms. It's not going back to Thatcher, it's going back to 2nd/3rd term Tony Blair.

[Souseiseki]

I don't think it is failing from their point of view - quite the contrary. Admittedly, I'm no economist but I get the distinct impression this is about permanently shrinking the size of the state and shredding public services - all because, I can only assume, at root they and their ilk don't believe they should be paying taxes so some 'pleb' can get decent healthcare etc.

Go look at the size of the healthcare budget.

unfortunately in a world where the ridiclous fawning over the "market" causes both tories and labour to do shit like "get a hospital built for 379m by the glorious private sector oh fuck 4bn are you serious well what about the one that was £64.4m? ...£773.2m? oh" the NHS does suffer serious budget problems

[Ostroeuropa]

Go look at the size of the healthcare budget.

unfortunately in a world where the ridiclous fawning over the "market" causes both tories and labour to do shit like "get a hospital built for 379m by the glorious private sector oh fuck 4bn are you serious well what about the one that was £64.4m? ...£773.2m? oh" the NHS does suffer serious budget problems

It's more to do with people being dipshits.

"We've spent this much more than our opponents on healthcare! WE'RE AWESOME!"
"Wow, they must really give a shit!"

Spending more on healthcare means ... well, just that. It could mean they are far, far shitter at finding good deals, are wasteful, whatever. But voters don't care. They here the big number and swoon.
That's why we've ended up with absurd shit like government departments paying ridiculous amounts of money for stationary, or paying thousands of pounds more than a computer is worth.

[The UK in Exile]

because of course a free trade agreement with the UK and not, say, the EU: the largest economy in the world, is so much more tempting.

A free trade agreement works both ways. I am a balancing the total export possibility against the possibility of losing internal markets due to foreign competions and the loss of tariff revenue from foreign imports being tariffed.

it doesn't work both ways when your a third party. the options are: to be part of the EU, the worlds largest market OR; leave and compete with the EU, the worlds largest market.

explanations as to how we would compete if we left tend to descend into churchillian rhetoric and foaming at the mouth.

[Personal Freedom]

A free trade agreement works both ways. I am a balancing the total export possibility against the possibility of losing internal markets due to foreign competions and the loss of tariff revenue from foreign imports being tariffed.

it doesn't work both ways when your a third party. the options are: to be part of the EU, the worlds largest market OR; leave and compete with the EU, the worlds largest market.

explanations as to how we would compete if we left tend to descend into churchillian rhetoric and foaming at the mouth.

Personally, I think the EU is destroying are economy by dragging...
*glazes over, falls on floor, and foams at mouth*

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

If you've been following British news recently, or, well, any time over the past few years, you'd have noticed that the British economy is in fairly deep trouble right now. Ever since the recession, it's been struggling to recover and even now it's still floundering around, still struggling to avoid further recession even today.

Many people are attributing this to the harsh austerity measures put in place by the Coalition.

This in itself isn't really news; austerity has been failing since day one. What I want to ask is, why are the Conservatives still pushing through with it?
Nearly 3 years on, and there still seems to be no sign of recovery. The deficit reduction plan isn't working, and neither, it seems, are any other government economic policies. They have me stumped.

NSG? Why is the government going ahead with its failing plan?

There are a couple of other factors at play here as well...namely banks utterly refusing to lend money and FTSE 350 companies awash with cash but not willing to spend it.

The killer is that that the two top lending banks....the taxpayers are the largest shareholders.

[Priory Academy USSR]

If you've been following British news recently, or, well, any time over the past few years, you'd have noticed that the British economy is in fairly deep trouble right now. Ever since the recession, it's been struggling to recover and even now it's still floundering around, still struggling to avoid further recession even today.

Many people are attributing this to the harsh austerity measures put in place by the Coalition.

This in itself isn't really news; austerity has been failing since day one. What I want to ask is, why are the Conservatives still pushing through with it?
Nearly 3 years on, and there still seems to be no sign of recovery. The deficit reduction plan isn't working, and neither, it seems, are any other government economic policies. They have me stumped.

NSG? Why is the government going ahead with its failing plan?

There are a couple of other factors at play here as well...namely banks utterly refusing to lend money and FTSE 350 companies awash with cash but not willing to spend it.

The killer is that that the two top lending banks....the taxpayers are the largest shareholders.

Yes, that is quite a major problem. But remember, using government influence over the banks to restart growth would go against pretty much the entire Conservative economic platform.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

There are a couple of other factors at play here as well...namely banks utterly refusing to lend money and FTSE 350 companies awash with cash but not willing to spend it.

The killer is that that the two top lending banks....the taxpayers are the largest shareholders.

Yes, that is quite a major problem. But remember, using government influence over the banks to restart growth would go against pretty much the entire Conservative economic platform.

I doubt it would be any different if Labour were in power to be honest.

[Eoghania]

Yes, that is quite a major problem. But remember, using government influence over the banks to restart growth would go against pretty much the entire Conservative economic platform.

I doubt it would be any different if Labour were in power to be honest.

New Labour, certainly.

[Priory Academy USSR]

Yes, that is quite a major problem. But remember, using government influence over the banks to restart growth would go against pretty much the entire Conservative economic platform.

I doubt it would be any different if Labour were in power to be honest.

Yeah. Which is why British politics at the moment are quite the shambles.

[Napkiraly]

I doubt it would be any different if Labour were in power to be honest.

Yeah. Which is why British politics at the moment are quite the shambles.

I wonder who'll give it the rightly deserved kick to the balls that it desperately needs.

[Eoghania]

Yeah. Which is why British politics at the moment are quite the shambles.

I wonder who'll give it the rightly deserved kick to the balls that it desperately needs.

Pity Screaming Lord Sutch is dead.

[Napkiraly]

I wonder who'll give it the rightly deserved kick to the balls that it desperately needs.

Pity Screaming Lord Sutch is dead.

Forever in our hearts.

[Eoghania]

Pity Screaming Lord Sutch is dead.

Forever in our hearts.

So, place your bets on which'll kick them into being vaguely sane - more than one Green gets elected, protest votes for BNP/UKIP actually elect someone, or Scotland becomes independent?

[Napkiraly]

Forever in our hearts.

So, place your bets on which'll kick them into being vaguely sane - more than one Green gets elected, protest votes for BNP/UKIP actually elect someone, or Scotland becomes independent?

Any of them. As it looks though the more likely one is UKIP. The question is, would it cause the other parties to veer further to the right?

[Eoghania]

So, place your bets on which'll kick them into being vaguely sane - more than one Green gets elected, protest votes for BNP/UKIP actually elect someone, or Scotland becomes independent?

Any of them. As it looks though the more likely one is UKIP. The question is, would it cause the other parties to veer further to the right?

God, I hope not.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Yeah. Which is why British politics at the moment are quite the shambles.

I wonder who'll give it the rightly deserved kick to the balls that it desperately needs.

Its funny you say that...I was an event in Leeds yesterday - "Buy Yorkshire" where there was a panel discussion where the panel consisted of 4 entrepreneurs who run some pretty big business, one who is involved with Vince Cables inner cabal of business leaders, another who is heavily involved in local community business initiatives that revolve around socially focused projects, and another who has a pan European business and also advises/mentors local Yorkshire entrepreneurs/businesses.

Every single one of these people said exactly the same thing. That despite Hesseltine's report No Stone Unturned in Pursuit of Growth (<- pdf) there is actually no one willing or even able to take the bull by the horn. There is no one strong enough to take on the utter wankers who are holding this country back.