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Why are some Christians against homosexuality?

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Zweite Alaje
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Postby Zweite Alaje » Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:17 pm

Distributist Chestertonia wrote:Because anyone who says this or that about homosexuality being healthy, normal, and acceptable to God is an eisegete, not an exegete. Most people are eisegetes to some degree or another, and that's because they fail to read the entire Bible, or they gloss over sections they don't understand or approve of. In other words, it all goes back to how seriously you take God and the Bible. Eisegetes don't rightly care and interpret the Bible as it suits them.

However, if you were to take homosexuality in the Bible in context, you would see that homosexuality in the Bible is surrounded by the context of human sexuality. What is what? Something to this tune:

"Let us make man in our image... be fruitful and multiply... thus a man leaves his family, and clings to his wife, and the two become one flesh.... And Eve bore a son, whom she named Cain, because she said, 'God has given to me a son!' "

This is the image of the first family - a mother, a father, and their children. Now, this image had been distorted afterwards - but not by God. Rather, by men. Now, I'm borrowing what I am saying from a teacher, Scott Hahn, who - if I recall correctly - says that the covenant at Ba'al Peor, not Sinai, is the one that introduced divorce, polygamy (or at least managing these things). And this was not a covenant made between God and the Israelites, but between Moses and the Israelites. (I don't think I quite understand Dr. Hahn, but if you'd like to take a look for yourself, it's in a book called "A Father Who Keeps His Promises", which lays out the etchings of God's salvation history for us.)

Over a millenium later, when the Pharisees asked Jesus about the question of divorce (it is related, very related), what did He respond?

"For the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce. But in the beginning it was not so."

This expresses an interest of Jesus for us to live with each other as we did before the Fall - that is, to restore us to the grace we lost in Eden so long ago. That is, we are to be restored to the relationship with God we had in Eden (and in the end, to become His sons and daughters). This is the entire point of Jesus's coming. Of the miracles. Of the preaching. Dr. Hahn goes into more detail regarding this in the book I mentioned above, and I really recommend you read it.

But if this is the case, that casts the Bible in a new light - or rather, the light it should have been cast in in the first place: the Father trying to bring His children home.

And what is the biggest metaphor for the covenant between God and Israel, Old or New? Marriage. Now there was never any nonsense about gay "marriage" in ancient times. Greeks had wives they were married to, and they sodomised each other at the gymnasium. Teachers sodomised their pupils (pederasty). And that was normal. But a Greek would laugh in your face at the idea of marrying a man for the sake of making children! As for Israel, well, Leviticus makes it clear how they viewed anything other than polygamy, perhaps.

So where does that seat Christians in the middle of all this bickering between Greeks, Jews, and the modern world?

Well, I'll let you research that yourself:

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/homosexuality.html
There's more in the Bible that speaks about homosexuality than what the OP has cited. (The Church Fathers, from the earliest days of the Church, also speak about it; you will find their opinion below the Scripture quotes.)

http://www.theologicalclowning.org/totb.html
(For a more robust, full-bodied look at the Catholic understanding of human sexuality, I present you Blessed Pope John Paul II's "Theology of the Body" - all of his sermons regarding the question of what our human sexuality looks like, operates, and its purpose.)

I hope you will enjoy the reading. I know I will.


If you were serious about God, you wouldn't be so adamant about following a set of text. God existed before your Christian practices were even dreamt up.
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:22 pm

Benedictus wrote:The serpent spoke to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, but the serpent was not just an animal; it was Satan.


Where in the torah does it mention that the serpent was Satan? (hint it doesn't)
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Divair
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Postby Divair » Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:13 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Benedictus wrote:The serpent spoke to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, but the serpent was not just an animal; it was Satan.


Where in the torah does it mention that the serpent was Satan? (hint it doesn't)

Hold it up at a 45 degree angle and spray paint all over it.

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:49 pm

Divair wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:
Where in the torah does it mention that the serpent was Satan? (hint it doesn't)

Hold it up at a 45 degree angle and spray paint all over it.


No thanks I would rather not destroy something someone tried so hard to create (and by that I mean writing out the damn thing by hand).
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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:50 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Benedictus wrote:The serpent spoke to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, but the serpent was not just an animal; it was Satan.


Where in the torah does it mention that the serpent was Satan? (hint it doesn't)

+10 Torah Points!
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Volnotova
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Postby Volnotova » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:02 pm

Benedictus wrote:Leviticus 20:13
"If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense."


What a delightfuly politically motivated translation.
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Agymnum
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Postby Agymnum » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:04 pm

Menassa wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:
Where in the torah does it mention that the serpent was Satan? (hint it doesn't)

+10 Torah Points!


Man, where were you when I needed you a few days ago on the gay marriage thread? Damn Jews, never show up to engagements on time. :p
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Anachronous Rex
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Postby Anachronous Rex » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:04 pm

Volnotova wrote:
Benedictus wrote:Leviticus 20:13
"If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense."


What a delightfuly politically motivated translation.

Right next to the part where it describes a polyester blend as an abomination, no less.
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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:05 pm

Agymnum wrote:
Menassa wrote:+10 Torah Points!


Man, where were you when I needed you a few days ago on the gay marriage thread? Damn Jews, never show up to engagements on time. :p

Being the haughty person I am.... if you type my name into your post... I'll search the forum for mentions of me... as well as my ducats...
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Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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Agymnum
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Postby Agymnum » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:07 pm

Menassa wrote:
Agymnum wrote:
Man, where were you when I needed you a few days ago on the gay marriage thread? Damn Jews, never show up to engagements on time. :p

Being the haughty person I am.... if you type my name into your post... I'll search the forum for mentions of me... as well as my ducats...


Agymnum wrote:
Valcouria wrote:The Savior did not discard the Old Testament, you know...Leviticus and all, which the modern world seems all to eager to cast aside.


Seriously, where's Menassa with his whole "Old Testament doesn't apply to Christians" speech when you need him?
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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:08 pm

Benedictus wrote: Leviticus 20:13
"If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense."

You know who keeps the Law of Moses?
Heretics and Jews.

Benedictus wrote: 1 Kings 14:24
And there were also male cult prostitutes in the land. They did according to all the abominations of the nations that the LORD drove out before the people of Israel.

Male prostitutes =homosexuals

Benedictus wrote:"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion. ‘Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you." (Leviticus 18:22-24).

Galatians 3:24


Benedictus wrote:"Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." (Genesis 19:4-5)

Ezekiel 16:49
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"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
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"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:09 pm

Agymnum wrote:
Menassa wrote:Being the haughty person I am.... if you type my name into your post... I'll search the forum for mentions of me... as well as my ducats...


Agymnum wrote:
Seriously, where's Menassa with his whole "Old Testament doesn't apply to Christians" speech when you need him?

Well








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"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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Cristos Templars
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Postby Cristos Templars » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:12 pm

Like I said. If God didn't want people to be gay or bisexual then why didn't he program our minds not to see each other that way? He's God for crying out loud. He created us, so why didn't he do it if he didn't want homosexuality to happen.

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Salandriagado
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Postby Salandriagado » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:14 pm

Benedictus wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:We already have. Or have you failed to notice that marriage is no longer a property exchange between men?


God made man for woman and woman for man. I really don't see how you think that marriage is some sort of property exchange.


It is a historical fact that marriage, for a significant majority of its history, was a method of transferring certain property from one person to another. Often, the woman in question was a part of the property.
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Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:14 pm

Cristos Templars wrote:Like I said. If God didn't want people to be gay or bisexual then why didn't he program our minds not to see each other that way? He's God for crying out loud. He created us, so why didn't he do it if he didn't want homosexuality to happen.

If God didn't want people to murder... he wouldn't have allowed people to murder!
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Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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Agymnum
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Postby Agymnum » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:15 pm

Salandriagado wrote:
Benedictus wrote:
God made man for woman and woman for man. I really don't see how you think that marriage is some sort of property exchange.


It is a historical fact that marriage, for a significant majority of its history, was a method of transferring certain property from one person to another. Often, the woman in question was a part of the property.


"$5,000 dollars, two goats, and two acres of land."

"That land is shit."

"So is her pussy."

"... You have a point... Deal."

^
That's what you traditional marriage advocates are supporting, if you're really supporting "traditional Biblical marriage".
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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:16 pm

Agymnum wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
It is a historical fact that marriage, for a significant majority of its history, was a method of transferring certain property from one person to another. Often, the woman in question was a part of the property.


"$5,000 dollars, two goats, and two acres of land."

"That land is shit."

"So is her pussy."

"... You have a point... Deal."

^
That's what you traditional marriage advocates are supporting, if you're really supporting "traditional Biblical marriage".

Do you know what reverse-dowry is?
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"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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Anachronous Rex
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Postby Anachronous Rex » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:16 pm

Menassa wrote:
Cristos Templars wrote:Like I said. If God didn't want people to be gay or bisexual then why didn't he program our minds not to see each other that way? He's God for crying out loud. He created us, so why didn't he do it if he didn't want homosexuality to happen.

If God didn't want people to murder... he wouldn't have allowed people to murder!

Well.... yeah actually.

He could have stopped Cain at any time. Not only did he not, he seems to have encouraged it by playing favorites.
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:18 pm

Anachronous Rex wrote:
Menassa wrote:If God didn't want people to murder... he wouldn't have allowed people to murder!

Well.... yeah actually.

He could have stopped Cain at any time. Not only did he not, he seems to have encouraged it by playing favorites.

True that is a possibility.
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Agymnum
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Postby Agymnum » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:18 pm

Menassa wrote:
Agymnum wrote:
"$5,000 dollars, two goats, and two acres of land."

"That land is shit."

"So is her pussy."

"... You have a point... Deal."

^
That's what you traditional marriage advocates are supporting, if you're really supporting "traditional Biblical marriage".

Do you know what reverse-dowry is?


No, curiously enough. I'm assuming it's the opposite of a dowry (what a woman brings to the marriage from her family).

So... what a man brings to the marriage in exchange for a woman (what I illustrated above)?
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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:19 pm

Anachronous Rex wrote:
Menassa wrote:If God didn't want people to murder... he wouldn't have allowed people to murder!

Well.... yeah actually.

He could have stopped Cain at any time. Not only did he not, he seems to have encouraged it by playing favorites.

God could have stopped many things... he could have stopped Adam and Eve... he could have stopped Ham... he could have stopped Pharaoh...

And if a Teacher in class likes a students report better and give them a better grade.... it's not the teacher's fault if the other student has a psychotic break.
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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Salandriagado
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Postby Salandriagado » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:20 pm

Agymnum wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
It is a historical fact that marriage, for a significant majority of its history, was a method of transferring certain property from one person to another. Often, the woman in question was a part of the property.


"$5,000 dollars, two goats, and two acres of land."

"That land is shit."

"So is her pussy."

"... You have a point... Deal."

^
That's what you traditional marriage advocates are supporting, if you're really supporting "traditional Biblical marriage".




Don't be ridiculous. Throw in a cow and four chickens, though, and you've got yourself a deal.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:20 pm

Agymnum wrote:
Menassa wrote:Do you know what reverse-dowry is?


No, curiously enough. I'm assuming it's the opposite of a dowry (what a woman brings to the marriage from her family).

So... what a man brings to the marriage in exchange for a woman (what I illustrated above)?

A reverse dowry is if the man divorces the woman he has to give her money... the amount of money is the odd end of $20,000 Which I believe is a lot for Biblical Times.

Our sages were very strict about this Law, not allowing a woman to be married for a few seconds without this in place....

However, I do not wish to steak my claim in this argument.... only letting you know.
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Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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Krakosov
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Postby Krakosov » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:22 pm

Menassa wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Well.... yeah actually.

He could have stopped Cain at any time. Not only did he not, he seems to have encouraged it by playing favorites.

God could have stopped many things... he could have stopped Adam and Eve... he could have stopped Ham... he could have stopped Pharaoh...

And if a Teacher in class likes a students report better and give them a better grade.... it's not the teacher's fault if the other student has a psychotic break.

he could have stopped hitler and he could stopped himself from killing all those children.
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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:24 pm

Krakosov wrote:
Menassa wrote:God could have stopped many things... he could have stopped Adam and Eve... he could have stopped Ham... he could have stopped Pharaoh...

And if a Teacher in class likes a students report better and give them a better grade.... it's not the teacher's fault if the other student has a psychotic break.

he could have stopped hitler [....]

Your second point while valid... has no place here.

Your first point however I shall address: You do not like your free-will?
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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