Gay marriages....now what about siblings parents or animals?

[Valcouria]

'Hate the sin, not the sinner.'
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm#2357
And as for Judaism, polygamy was only tolerated since 'Multiple marriages were considered a realistic alternative in the case of famine, widowhood, or female infertility.' An event brought on by a dire circumstance. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy#Judaism). Little was said about its morality, and there were many Jews that condemned it at the time as well (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Shulchan_Aruch/Even_ha-Ezer/1)

You're arguing with Menassa. The man's a Jewish scholar. It's his job to interpret the Torah.

$1,000 says you lose before the day's over.

Feels like I have been hustled...but then, I started it...

[Valcouria]

Of course not; in this debauched modern age, when reason is championed over faith, why would it? This is one of the reasons I fear for the survival of humanity.

"You can do very little with faith, but you can do nothing without it"-Samuel Butler.

Oh, I don't know, because reason is how we're not living in shitty hellholes in the first place?

Faith doesn't do jack shit.

I would prefer to see it as faith providing inspiration.

[Neutraligon]

Wasn't Abraham practically required to be polygamous, since Sarah had not managed to have children(for a long time)?

Indubitabely... though that was a 'kindness' by Sarah.

We also have 3 fathers and 4 mothers, kinda supports the idea that polygamy was allowable. Oh and then there are the laws of marriage. If I remember correctly a wife was entitled to have sex with her husband. Any woman whose husband could not fulfill this had grounds for a divorce.

[Menassa]

You're arguing with Menassa. The man's a Jewish scholar. It's his job to interpret the Torah.

$1,000 says you lose before the day's over.

Feels like I have been hustled...but then, I started it...

Bottom line.

Polygamy is not Morally detestable.
and
Do Jesus a favor and don't follow the Law.

(anyone want to make the latter a fun PSA poster?)

[Frisivisia]

Oh, I don't know, because reason is how we're not living in shitty hellholes in the first place?

Faith doesn't do jack shit.

I would prefer to see it as faith providing inspiration.

Inspiration for violence and oppression.

[Person012345]

A: They banged him... I mean they basically drugged him and Raped him.

That's debatable. And, given the nature of the man (he had previously offered his daughters up to be raped by an angry mob), I will remain somewhat sceptical.

[RainBear]

Exactly! If no one is harmed by the relationship and no one's free will is being adversely affected, what does it matter as to what genitalia are involved? All same-sex marriage means is equal rights AND responsibilities as already being experienced by heterosexual couples.

[Menassa]

Indubitabely... though that was a 'kindness' by Sarah.

We also have 3 fathers and 4 mothers, kinda supports the idea that polygamy was allowable. Oh and then there are the laws of marriage. If I remember correctly a wife was entitled to have sex with her husband. Any woman whose husband could not fulfill this had grounds for a divorce.

Indeed.

Indeed.

[Individuality-ness]

Oh, I don't know, because reason is how we're not living in shitty hellholes in the first place?

Faith doesn't do jack shit.

I would prefer to see it as faith providing inspiration.

Yeah, no. I think I'm much happier being a liberal, feminist, sex-positive, pro-LGBT atheist than being a neoconservative, repressive, God-fearing fundamentalist.

[Agymnum]

A: They banged him... I mean they basically drugged him and Raped him.

That's debatable. And, given the nature of the man (he had previously offered his daughters up to be raped by an angry mob), I will remain somewhat sceptical.

I'm not saying Lot was justified to offer his daughters up, but you don't repay potential rape by actually raping someone back.

[Menassa]

A: They banged him... I mean they basically drugged him and Raped him.

That's debatable. And, given the nature of the man (he had previously offered his daughters up to be raped by an angry mob), I will remain somewhat sceptical.

Genesis 19:33

That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

[Individuality-ness]

A: They banged him... I mean they basically drugged him and Raped him.

That's debatable. And, given the nature of the man (he had previously offered his daughters up to be raped by an angry mob), I will remain somewhat sceptical.

He was so drunk that he didn't know that his daughters banged him, and he wasn't able to consent. Isn't that technically rape?

[RainBear]

The Hebrew word for wedding is “Kiddushin,” which means ‘Sanctification,’ or ‘Holiness.’ A wedding is the formal declaration of the holiness of love. All the blessings and rituals and formulae under the wedding canopy affirm one idea: when two human beings find each other and love each other, it is Godly: a taste of the World to Come, a world of perfected justice and joy. It is in our capacity to love that we are holy, and most fully in the image of God. If there’s anything that 3,000 years of Jewish history has shown us—3,000 years of so much exile and persecution—it’s that the only hope for humankind is to strive toward ever-more loving and just societies.

We Jews are a people who have never quite fit into the same categories of peoplehood or religion that other nations do. We are a distinct people, even as we bear a message of God’s universality. We affirm that we are different from other peoples, even as we know that we are no different than any other human being. Our presence in the world has often been a source of anxiety for other nations, religions, and people. In this way, we Jews have always been a queer people . And yes, I use the term ‘queer’ deliberately. To be queer is to be troubling, unsettling, not meeting expectations of the way others might want things to be.

It is, in fact, the Jews’ queerness in the world that captures our particular Divine message to all humanity. As Rabbi David Dunn Bauer, creator of Queer Spiritual Counseling teaches, the existence of God is the queerest thing about the universe. God, too, cannot be categorized or boxed in. The inexplicable mystery of God is a source of unspeakable anxiety to so many of us who long to reduce God to our simplistic categories. Finally, we declare the love of a wedded couple to be holy because love, too, defies all classifications and can never be bounded--it’s a feeling, but not just a feeling; it’s a state of being that “have,” that we “are,” but it is larger than any one individual or relationship. Love is queer, and in recognizing this, we find its holiness, its Godliness.

It is no accident that the famous Levitical injunction concerning homosexuality appears in a section of the Torah called “Kedoshim,” meaning “Holy.” When seen in context, the homosexual act described comes amidst a series of many kinds of human couplings—all of which are abusive because they are not loving acts. When one man rapes another man simply because he does not have access to a woman, such an act is indeed an abomination, a desecration of God’s holiness, a desecration of love. Such an act is the farthest thing from the love of two human beings—of whatever gender—that we can and must sanctify whenever it arises in our human condition.

I reject the idea that the Bible declares that the only sacred love that can exist is the love between a man and a woman. Love is queer -- it can never be limited to our categorizations of roles and gender. Love is commitment, presence, and kindness so awesome and mysterious that nothing in our power can contain it. We must, in our very imperfect world, celebrate, sanctify, and lift up love wherever we find it; because our loving relationships are the only way that we will bring Godliness to this world. For these reasons, I proudly stand for the evolution of Judaism, in awe of the wisdom of my Jewish people and tradition, the of holiness God and the queerness of love.

[Menassa]

That's debatable. And, given the nature of the man (he had previously offered his daughters up to be raped by an angry mob), I will remain somewhat sceptical.

I'm not saying Lot was justified to offer his daughters up, but you don't repay potential rape by actually raping someone back.

And the Bible is clear they did not seem to have malicious intent.

[Neutraligon]

We also have 3 fathers and 4 mothers, kinda supports the idea that polygamy was allowable. Oh and then there are the laws of marriage. If I remember correctly a wife was entitled to have sex with her husband. Any woman whose husband could not fulfill this had grounds for a divorce.

Indeed.

Indeed.

That meant a husband had to provide sex with any and all of his wives. For that matter she was entitled to quit a few other things, so a man would have to be relatively wealthy to support multiple wives and their children. (makes concubines a much more attractive possibility).

[Person012345]

That's debatable. And, given the nature of the man (he had previously offered his daughters up to be raped by an angry mob), I will remain somewhat sceptical.

I'm not saying Lot was justified to offer his daughters up, but you don't repay potential rape by actually raping someone back.

No, I didn't say that. I said I'm sceptical that he was raped at all. Even in the fantasy world of the bible. It's debatable and his previous actions have not shown him to be of good character.

[Menassa]

The Hebrew word for wedding is “Kiddushin,” which means ‘Sanctification,’ or ‘Holiness.’ A wedding is the formal declaration of the holiness of love. All the blessings and rituals and formulae under the wedding canopy affirm one idea: when two human beings find each other and love each other, it is Godly: a taste of the World to Come, a world of perfected justice and joy. It is in our capacity to love that we are holy, and most fully in the image of God. If there’s anything that 3,000 years of Jewish history has shown us—3,000 years of so much exile and persecution—it’s that the only hope for humankind is to strive toward ever-more loving and just societies.

We Jews are a people who have never quite fit into the same categories of peoplehood or religion that other nations do. We are a distinct people, even as we bear a message of God’s universality. We affirm that we are different from other peoples, even as we know that we are no different than any other human being. Our presence in the world has often been a source of anxiety for other nations, religions, and people. In this way, we Jews have always been a queer people . And yes, I use the term ‘queer’ deliberately. To be queer is to be troubling, unsettling, not meeting expectations of the way others might want things to be.

It is, in fact, the Jews’ queerness in the world that captures our particular Divine message to all humanity. As Rabbi David Dunn Bauer, creator of Queer Spiritual Counseling teaches, the existence of God is the queerest thing about the universe. God, too, cannot be categorized or boxed in. The inexplicable mystery of God is a source of unspeakable anxiety to so many of us who long to reduce God to our simplistic categories. Finally, we declare the love of a wedded couple to be holy because love, too, defies all classifications and can never be bounded--it’s a feeling, but not just a feeling; it’s a state of being that “have,” that we “are,” but it is larger than any one individual or relationship. Love is queer, and in recognizing this, we find its holiness, its Godliness.

It is no accident that the famous Levitical injunction concerning homosexuality appears in a section of the Torah called “Kedoshim,” meaning “Holy.” When seen in context, the homosexual act described comes amidst a series of many kinds of human couplings—all of which are abusive because they are not loving acts. When one man rapes another man simply because he does not have access to a woman, such an act is indeed an abomination, a desecration of God’s holiness, a desecration of love. Such an act is the farthest thing from the love of two human beings—of whatever gender—that we can and must sanctify whenever it arises in our human condition.

I reject the idea that the Bible declares that the only sacred love that can exist is the love between a man and a woman. Love is queer -- it can never be limited to our categorizations of roles and gender. Love is commitment, presence, and kindness so awesome and mysterious that nothing in our power can contain it. We must, in our very imperfect world, celebrate, sanctify, and lift up love wherever we find it; because our loving relationships are the only way that we will bring Godliness to this world. For these reasons, I proudly stand for the evolution of Judaism, in awe of the wisdom of my Jewish people and tradition, the of holiness God and the queerness of love.

It happens to be the term Kiddushin was made by our Sages to show the sanctity of marriage.

The Term the Bible uses is: Kinyan.

[Agymnum]

I'm not saying Lot was justified to offer his daughters up, but you don't repay potential rape by actually raping someone back.

No, I didn't say that. I said I'm sceptical that he was raped at all. Even in the fantasy world of the bible. It's debatable and his previous actions have not shown him to be of good character.

All I'm saying is that not being of good character should never factor into whether someone should be raped.

Considering that he was unaware of his daughters laying with him, I'd call it rape. Not sure how drunk he'd need to be to be unaware, though.

[Individuality-ness]

I'm not saying Lot was justified to offer his daughters up, but you don't repay potential rape by actually raping someone back.

No, I didn't say that. I said I'm sceptical that he was raped at all. Even in the fantasy world of the bible. It's debatable and his previous actions have not shown him to be of good character.

Whether someone's of good moral character doesn't matter in the slightest. If a person didn't consent to the sex act (or are otherwise unable to, due to intoxication for example), it's rape. And Lot was unable to consent, his daughter got him extremely intoxicated.

[Menassa]

Indeed.

Indeed.

That meant a husband had to provide sex with any and all of his wives. For that matter she was entitled to quit a few other things, so a man would have to be relatively wealthy to support multiple wives and their children. (makes concubines a much more attractive possibility).

Que. Rabbainu Gershon... or was it Gershom?

[Individuality-ness]

No, I didn't say that. I said I'm sceptical that he was raped at all. Even in the fantasy world of the bible. It's debatable and his previous actions have not shown him to be of good character.

All I'm saying is that not being of good character should never factor into whether someone should be raped.

Considering that he was unaware of his daughters laying with him, I'd call it rape. Not sure how drunk he'd need to be to be unaware, though.

Regarding blacking out, you would have to be pretty drunk.

[RainBear]

I have always found it fascinating that the Christian Bible offers up Lot (according to Peter) as a fine example of a righteous man. What was his "righteous" action? He offered up his two daughters to be raped so that he could get his sleep!

Seriously, is his sleep so important that some here want to deny equality to LGBT people?

[Menassa]

I have always found it fascinating that the Christian Bible offers up Lot (according to Peter) as a fine example of a righteous man. What was his "righteous" action? He offered up his two daughters to be raped so that he could get his sleep!

Seriously, is his sleep so important that some here want to deny equality to LGBT people?

And Boom goes the dynamite.

[Neutraligon]

That meant a husband had to provide sex with any and all of his wives. For that matter she was entitled to quit a few other things, so a man would have to be relatively wealthy to support multiple wives and their children. (makes concubines a much more attractive possibility).

Que. Rabbainu Gershon... or was it Gershom?

pretty sure it was Gershom with a mem

[Menassa]

Que. Rabbainu Gershon... or was it Gershom?

pretty sure it was Gershom with a mem

Like Moses's son.