Gay marriages....now what about siblings parents or animals?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

See I imagine that had it been me I wouldn't have been fine and quite frankly as a child that scared the hell out of me and the irony is even at the time I knew there was a 0% chance of my parents ever splitting up nor is there one now, but nevertheless i felt as if there did exist this world ending catastrophe known as divorce. I feel at the very least that when children are involved they should have some say in approving any disillusion of marriage/later remarriage.

You know what is much more traumatizing to children then a divorce?

Living with two people who don't like each other.

No, seriously. I've seen this at play a hundred times. Walked into homes where you could cut the tension with a knife, endured the snide backhanded comments, and passive-aggression; random explosive outbursts.

That shit will fuck you up.

Testify!

The best gift a parent can give their children is loving their spouse (mother or father). If that love is no longer there, part ways. It will be better for everyone, even the children, to see their parents happy in the long run.

[Person012345]

It depends on what exactly is promised. As already mentioned marriages have all sorts of vows, although I'll assume this guy thinks that all marriages are a pledge-to-the-death. Most contracts such as phone contracts have specific get-out clauses (if you wish to end this contract you will XYZ), whereas his idea of marriage vows probably don't.

Although I'm not sure on the legality of a contract that would give you no way out. Of course, the actual laws are what he's proposing would be changed here.

A large amount of people in their wedding vows omit the "till death do us part". Many couples have a prenuptial. And it's often presumed now that if the contract doesn't work, the option of a divorce exists.

Indeed. I'm not saying Llama is living in the general vicinity of reality of course.

[The Rich Port]

What exactly is it about divorce that makes it the most terrible of all possible outcomes, in your mind?

Because I have you down as honestly advocating the near total destruction of marriage, just to prevent divorce... something which, frankly, isn't that bad.

I'm not entirely sure but as a child I always figured if my parents tried to divorce I would totally flip out either run way from home or something. Also I believe now that it weakens the institution of marriage for those who do it in what I believe is the historically correct way (i.e. staying married until death).

Actually, maintaining a bad marriage could be a thousand times more traumatizing than ending it badly.

Indeed, if a marriage is somehow poor, it should be ended quickly and painlessly, for the sake of the children.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Point. The pox usually took care of that. Or child birth or war.

I didn't know we had a time traveling poster.

Speaking of which, you should really consider killing off the cephalopods now. That, or treating them very nicely.

Why? Are they our new overlords? I didn't get the memo text.

Fucking AT&T.

[Llamalandia]

See I imagine that had it been me I wouldn't have been fine and quite frankly as a child that scared the hell out of me and the irony is even at the time I knew there was a 0% chance of my parents ever splitting up nor is there one now, but nevertheless i felt as if there did exist this world ending catastrophe known as divorce. I feel at the very least that when children are involved they should have some say in approving any disillusion of marriage/later remarriage.

You know what is much more traumatizing to children then a divorce?

Living with two people who don't like each other.

No, seriously. I've seen this at play a hundred times. Walked into homes where you could cut the tension with a knife, endured the snide backhanded comments, and passive-aggression; random explosive outbursts.

That shit will fuck you up.

I don't know in my family passive - aggression seems to be the only form of communication at times and I feel like we do alright. Now were there to be actually abuse woman hits man man hits woman that kind of thing I do believe will mess kids up, but no relationship is ever perfect and parents at times yell at children quite dramatically and thats no worse I believe than what you are terming random explosive outbursts.

[The Planet of Orran]

OP... Please, please tell me this is satire on your part.

[Person012345]

Although he'd no doubt argue that no true marriage would omit the "till death us do part" bit.

[Llamalandia]

Although he'd no doubt argue that no true marriage would omit the "till death us do part" bit.

Exactly correct. but i'm pretty sure someone in the audience would object to a marriage vow which said to love and honor and cherish for ...eh 'bout 20-30 years or so then dump each other for someone 20 years younger

[Individuality-ness]

A large amount of people in their wedding vows omit the "till death do us part". Many couples have a prenuptial. And it's often presumed now that if the contract doesn't work, the option of a divorce exists.

Indeed. I'm not saying Llama is living in the general vicinity of reality of course.

True. Although I have to say, even in the Old Testament, there's a clause allowing for divorce. And there are stories of couples making up stories or lying to the authorities in order to get a divorce legally where no-fault divorces are illegal -- the legal complications in obtaining a divorce in such a case was even documented in Anna Karenina, to name one example.

[Anachronous Rex]

You know what is much more traumatizing to children then a divorce?

Living with two people who don't like each other.

No, seriously. I've seen this at play a hundred times. Walked into homes where you could cut the tension with a knife, endured the snide backhanded comments, and passive-aggression; random explosive outbursts.

That shit will fuck you up.

I don't know in my family passive - aggression seems to be the only form of communication at times and I feel like we do alright. Now were there to be actually abuse woman hits man man hits woman that kind of thing I do believe will mess kids up, but no relationship is ever perfect and parents at times yell at children quite dramatically and thats no worse I believe than what you are terming random explosive outbursts.

How old are you? Oh, and please do tell the truth, because lying to make yourself seem older will have the opposite of the desired effect.

[Pillea]

Although he'd no doubt argue that no true marriage would omit the "till death us do part" bit.

Which of course is sometimes a result of these marriages that should end in divorce but don't. The death is just ya know, caused by the other spouse.

[The Planet of Orran]

I'm not entirely sure but as a child I always figured if my parents tried to divorce I would totally flip out either run way from home or something. Also I believe now that it weakens the institution of marriage for those who do it in what I believe is the historically correct way (i.e. staying married until death).

Actually, maintaining a bad marriage could be a thousand times more traumatizing than ending it badly.

Indeed, if a marriage is somehow poor, it should be ended quickly and painlessly, for the sake of the children.

I can vouch for this. My parents hated each other, and my only escape was twiddling the thumbs on my console's controller.

Now I'm left without any true semblance of family in my life, and having/starting one is my number one aspiration.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Although he'd no doubt argue that no true marriage would omit the "till death us do part" bit.

Exactly correct. but i'm pretty sure someone in the audience would object to a marriage vow which said to love and honor and cherish for ...eh 'bout 20-30 years or so then dump each other for someone 20 years younger

Are you secretly Donald Trump?

[Llamalandia]

I don't know in my family passive - aggression seems to be the only form of communication at times and I feel like we do alright. Now were there to be actually abuse woman hits man man hits woman that kind of thing I do believe will mess kids up, but no relationship is ever perfect and parents at times yell at children quite dramatically and thats no worse I believe than what you are terming random explosive outbursts.

How old are you? Oh, and please do tell the truth, because lying to make yourself seem older will have the opposite of the desired effect.

I'm in my twenties (won't be more specific on the net) but don't see how that's especially relevant.

[Person012345]

Although he'd no doubt argue that no true marriage would omit the "till death us do part" bit.

Exactly correct. but i'm pretty sure someone in the audience would object to a marriage vow which said to love and honor and cherish for ...eh 'bout 20-30 years or so then dump each other for someone 20 years younger

Well no, if they both agreed to that then what business is it of mine?

[AiliailiA]

Mind you, in the old days, people died.

Till death do us part was much easier when dysentery was a serious threat.

And death in childbirth. Nowadays, much longer life expectancy thanks to the miracles of modern medicine.

Death in childbirth is most exquisitely relevant.

But aren't we granting a premise unnecessarily, that "until death" is the age old way? This may be true, but given who's plugging it could also be based on nothing more than the wording of a slightly old-fashioned but not age-old wedding vow. "'Til death do us part". My guess is that hasn't been a constant over time or among different places.

[Anachronous Rex]

How old are you? Oh, and please do tell the truth, because lying to make yourself seem older will have the opposite of the desired effect.

I'm in my twenties (won't be more specific on the net) but don't see how that's especially relevant.

Because we could track you down if we knew the year you were born?

Well, I was going to say wait until you've lived a little... but you don't do yourself any favors with that answer. Wait until you've lived a little more, I guess.

[Individuality-ness]

You know what is much more traumatizing to children then a divorce?

Living with two people who don't like each other.

No, seriously. I've seen this at play a hundred times. Walked into homes where you could cut the tension with a knife, endured the snide backhanded comments, and passive-aggression; random explosive outbursts.

That shit will fuck you up.

I don't know in my family passive - aggression seems to be the only form of communication at times and I feel like we do alright. Now were there to be actually abuse woman hits man man hits woman that kind of thing I do believe will mess kids up, but no relationship is ever perfect and parents at times yell at children quite dramatically and thats no worse I believe than what you are terming random explosive outbursts.

Have you ever been in the same room when your parents are fighting one another? It's horrible.

My parents should probably get a divorce, since they're often fighting over money and how to spend it and over how to best raise my brother and my father's credit card usage and stuff. They won't though, because of legal complications (mother's a permanent resident and father's a citizen, and if they got divorced my mother's residency might be at stake) and because my father's old and can't really live on his own with the amount of money he makes -- he's near retirement age now.

[Llamalandia]

Exactly correct. but i'm pretty sure someone in the audience would object to a marriage vow which said to love and honor and cherish for ...eh 'bout 20-30 years or so then dump each other for someone 20 years younger

Well no, if they both agreed to that then what business is it of mine?

Then why is marriage the business of anyone but the two people getting married and why is there a need for a state marriage license and why does the priest or officiating officer ask if for people to "speak now or forever hold your peace." and why is there any need for any witnesses to the marriage. clearly marriage is meant to be subject to the will of the society to some extent (just keep the govt far away before they start dictating who can and can't marry).

[Grainne Ni Malley]

No I said no to abusive marriages which you may have missed if you haven't my posts from like 10 pages ago. I believe parents shouldn't fight or at the very least never fight in front of children and should work out any marital problems quickly and on their own (or with outside counseling) and not let it affect children. If you can't do this I don't believe you are emotionally mature enough to be raising children (not that lack of maturity stops many people in the USA from having kids anyway.) The childs interests should come first and I believe in non-abuse type situations the childs interests are always best served with the original two parent nuclear model.

Okay, I did miss that. I don't have a large enough attention span to go digging back that far.

The circumstances you mention are, once again, ideal. However, as you also stated, this doesn't always happen. As a people we must address reality as opposed to idyllic situations unfortunately. People are more likely to fall "in love" when they are young and also tend to be quite fertile in their youth, so often maturity, or a lack thereof, has a very small part to play if any at all in marriage and bringing children into the scenario.

Also, I'm pretty sure that kids everywhere across the world get knocked up, or end up entering into marriage at young ages. To say this is a problem distinct to the USA is at best naive, at worst prejudiced.

[Person012345]

Well no, if they both agreed to that then what business is it of mine?

Then why is marriage the business of anyone but the two people getting married and why is there a need for a state marriage license and why does the priest or officiating officer ask if for people to "speak now or forever hold your peace." and why is there any need for any witnesses to the marriage. clearly marriage is meant to be subject to the will of the society to some extent (just keep the govt far away before they start dictating who can and can't marry).

I don't believe I ever advocated government involvement in marriage. And if you don't, then who is going to tell people they can't get divorced?

[Pillea]

Well no, if they both agreed to that then what business is it of mine?

Then why is marriage the business of anyone but the two people getting married and why is there a need for a state marriage license and why does the priest or officiating officer ask if for people to "speak now or forever hold your peace." and why is there any need for any witnesses to the marriage. clearly marriage is meant to be subject to the will of the society to some extent (just keep the govt far away before they start dictating who can and can't marry).

The government does that already. They say Steve and Mary can get hitched, without asking questions. But Steve and Mark wanna get hitched.... now there's this whole hullabaloo.

[Llamalandia]

I don't know in my family passive - aggression seems to be the only form of communication at times and I feel like we do alright. Now were there to be actually abuse woman hits man man hits woman that kind of thing I do believe will mess kids up, but no relationship is ever perfect and parents at times yell at children quite dramatically and thats no worse I believe than what you are terming random explosive outbursts.

Have you ever been in the same room when your parents are fighting one another? It's horrible.

My parents should probably get a divorce, since they're often fighting over money and how to spend it and over how to best raise my brother and my father's credit card usage and stuff. They won't though, because of legal complications (mother's a permanent resident and father's a citizen, and if they got divorced my mother's residency might be at stake) and because my father's old and can't really live on his own with the amount of money he makes -- he's near retirement age now.

Yes I have and I have always found my parents fights even the most serious ones to be rather comical (i literally remember lolling at some of them) because I knew they would always make up and reconcile any differences and I don't in fact believe that irreconcilable difference are real I believe there are only people too lazy to make their relationships work.

[Anachronous Rex]

And death in childbirth. Nowadays, much longer life expectancy thanks to the miracles of modern medicine.

Death in childbirth is most exquisitely relevant.

But aren't we granting a premise unnecessarily, that "until death" is the age old way? This may be true, but given who's plugging it could also be based on nothing more than the wording of a slightly old-fashioned but not age-old wedding vow. "'Til death do us part". My guess is that hasn't been a constant over time or among different places.

In fact, I know a culture that exists today where the vow is, "stay together until all the children are raised, and don't be jealous of each other's lovers."

Well, not so much a vow, actually, as something which is shouted at you by your new parents-in-law.

[Llamalandia]

Exactly correct. but i'm pretty sure someone in the audience would object to a marriage vow which said to love and honor and cherish for ...eh 'bout 20-30 years or so then dump each other for someone 20 years younger

Are you secretly Donald Trump?

No I still have mah hair thank you very very much.