Smoking In Public

[Deamonopolis]

What I'm saying is: it's my own damn choice. If me and a bunch of people are smoking outside (I don't mind smoking bans) then don't whine if you choose to stand next me or someone else who is smoking. It's a similar logical fallacy such as "I don't drink alcohol because I don't like the taste and the risks it carries. Ban alcohol!" If your personal preference of a product is dislike or even hatred, don't force our outlandish philosophy onto others who do enjoy it without the specific intent to cause harm onto others - and that harm (not denying the risks of 2nd hand smoke) can be easily avoided. Like, don't come near cigarette smoke if you don't like it. With all the smoking bans currently enforced in the UK, doing so shouldn't be that difficult.

[Luveria]

What I'm saying is: it's my own damn choice. If me and a bunch of people are smoking outside (I don't mind smoking bans) then don't whine if you choose to stand next me or someone else who is smoking. It's a similar logical fallacy such as "I don't drink alcohol because I don't like the taste and the risks it carries. Ban alcohol!"

Oh please. When a person drinks alcohol other people aren't getting intoxicated by that.

[Deamonopolis]

What I'm saying is: it's my own damn choice. If me and a bunch of people are smoking outside (I don't mind smoking bans) then don't whine if you choose to stand next me or someone else who is smoking. It's a similar logical fallacy such as "I don't drink alcohol because I don't like the taste and the risks it carries. Ban alcohol!"

Oh please. When a person drinks alcohol other people aren't getting intoxicated by that.

How many people have died because of drunk driving? Driving a car while intoxicated is against the law you know.

[Arglorand]

Mate, of course it's your own damn choice, but there's also the fact that I don't exactly like people coming next to my apartment building's door every day by the time I get back from school and smoking there. I have to go through my door, it's not something I can choose to not do, at least not until I reach level 27 and get the Teleport Home special skill.

There are places where smokers do, in fact, infringe on other people's right not to get second hand smoke. And hence why I support just getting you off the doorsteps to places.

[Luveria]

Oh please. When a person drinks alcohol other people aren't getting intoxicated by that.

How many people have died because of drunk driving? Driving a car while intoxicated is against the law you know.

1) When a person consumes alcohol people aren't getting intoxicated by that such as when a person lights up a cigarette and other people are affected by second hand smoke.
2) There are laws against drunk driving.
3) If you really want alcohol banned go look at how prohibition works. It doesn't. Better yet, look at drug prohibition in general.

[Deamonopolis]

Either you're crawling through the doorway or you're being too sensitive here. How long does it take you to wade through the thick tobacco fog? Save for medical reasons, I think this is more of a sensitivity issue. Also, put up a sign that says "no smoking within 20 feet of doorway." Problem solved!

EDIT:

1) When a person consumes alcohol people aren't getting intoxicated by that such as when a person lights up a cigarette and other people are affected by second hand smoke.
2) There are laws against drunk driving.
3) If you really want alcohol banned go look at how prohibition works. It doesn't. Better yet, look at drug prohibition in general.

1) Your call to stand next to me or others who smoke a cigarette outside. I don't see why you should be entitled to a moral high ground if you decide to stand in the vicinity of tobacco users and then feeling 'violated' when you breathe in 2nd hand smoke.
2) And look how that works out! People still liquor up and get behind the wheel.
3) I'm not advocating to ban alcoholic beverages, I drew a comparison between a similar logical fallacy. You're right about that, though.

[Luveria]

Either you're crawling through the doorway or you're being too sensitive here. How long does it take you to wade through the thick tobacco fog? Save for medical reasons, I think this is more of a sensitivity issue. Also, put up a sign that says "no smoking within 20 feet of doorway." Problem solved!

Why do you feel such a sense of entitlement that you don't feel the need to give the slightest fuck about anyone else being affected by your second hand smoke?

[Immoren]

Oh please. When a person drinks alcohol other people aren't getting intoxicated by that.

How many people have died because of drunk driving? Driving a car while intoxicated is against the law you know.

Ignition interlock device as part of mandatory equipment for all new cars. *nods*

[Arglorand]

Either you're crawling through the doorway or you're being too sensitive here. How long does it take you to wade through the thick tobacco fog? Save for medical reasons, I think this is more of a sensitivity issue. Also, put up a sign that says "no smoking within 20 feet of doorway." Problem solved!

The building isn't exactly mine, just one apartment in there. I've no authority to put up such a sign, unless all my neighbors agree to the idea.

Also, I'm not sure if you've realized, but it's possible to, I don't KNOW, go somewhere else which isn't literally in the way of people? Then people can smoke, and I can go home without the health hazard, and everyone can be happy. I don't care about them trying their best to avoid the teachers from the nearby school from catching them, I just wish my doorstep was smokefree.

[Veceria]

As long as they don't exhale directly into my face in public (which may lead to a fist in the smoker's face after a while), I really couldn't care less.

Even smokers hate that.

I know. Some of them still think it's funny, though. Such types of smokers act like they're 10-year olds as soon as they light a cigarette. It's usually those who started smoking because they think it makes them look 'cool'.
My favorite kind are those who don't smoke as long as they're around other people, especially in enclosed spaces. Those who act like mature, unselfish people.
Not like that type who acts like an arrogant snob, thinking (s)he owns any public spaces, driving away anyone who got a problem with smoke just because (s)he feels the urge to suck on those tiny sticks and blow smoke all around. Which is even worse when you have to wait for a train or bus, there's only one bench or chair, and such a type of smoker occupies that place (maybe because they don't have the stamina to stand for a few minutes), ignoring elderly, sick or pregnant people who want to sit there as well, just without smoke getting blown at them.

That said, I know many nice and bad types of smokers (And those 'bad' ones may actually be 'nice' if they stopped smoking around everyone - not because of their personality, but because people could actually be around them without getting smoke into their lungs). I only want those arrogant types to stop being arrogant and selfish, and nobody would have any problems with them.

[Luveria]

How many people have died because of drunk driving? Driving a car while intoxicated is against the law you know.

Ignition interlock device as part of mandatory equipment for all new cars. *nods*

Do you realize they could just get drunk after they start the car?

[Arglorand]

Ignition interlock device as part of mandatory equipment for all new cars. *nods*

Do you realize they could just get drunk after they start the car?

We need to install some secret agency sci-fi doohickies in the door that vaporize any alcohol one brings in, turning it all into orange juice. *nods*

[Luveria]

Do you realize they could just get drunk after they start the car?

We need to install some secret agency sci-fi doohickies in the door that vaporize any alcohol one brings in, turning it all into orange juice. *nods*

Also they could get their buddy who hasn't been drinking at all to start the car. So many ways around it.

[Immoren]

Do you realize they could just get drunk after they start the car?

We need to install some secret agency sci-fi doohickies in the door that vaporize any alcohol one brings in, turning it all into orange juice. *nods*

So people would have to walk or bike or bus to get their alcohol?

[Serrland]

I generally agree with a public ban on sidewalks and such. Bigger, more open areas? Not so sold.on that. And very much in favor.of a ban on smoking in restaurants, bars, and shops.

[Vitaphone Racing]

And what do the products of the tobacco companies do? What does the lifestyle of smokers do? Oh yeah, clog the health system.

That they, and others, paid for. They pay for a system that they have every right to use. It'd be like refusing treatment to obese people or people with alcohol related conditions.

They don't pay for it at all. Check the source again. "Paying for it" is a long stretch from contributing to society any how.

Walking behind a bus or a car implies I'm walking on the road where I'm not supposed to be.

Considering you claim smokers are difficult to identify, it wouldn't be a big jump to assume you like to play with traffic. Besides, have you never ever crossed a road with traffic stopped on it?

Is that like assuming that you can't debate for shit because you throw in an ad hominem every chance you get? Furthermore, cars are not allowed to park on pedestrian crossings, therefore your point is sort of moot.

I also suppose you haven't bothered to consider the exit points of exhausts for cars and trucks? Ie. either really low or really high to minimize the possibility that you can breath anything in? Maybe we already passed regulations to prevent this sort of pollution....

I don't get to claim that I'm being forced to breathe in the fumes of cars and buses because I am choosing to walk somewhere I am not supposed to.

Thing is, you still breathe in the fumes regardless of whether or not you are behind any of the vehicles in question. You're still inhaling all the lovely carcinogens and toxins that vehicles emit.

Yeah, and I can choose to stay out of an area where I'm most likely to breath in these fumes. I don't have an area on the footpath I can go to in order to get away from smokers.

Plus, you should actually check the list of carcinogens emitted by the exhaust of a vehicle and then compare them against cigarette smoke.

What part of this is so fucking hard to understand?

Your logic. You should really get that checked out. People really shouldn't be making a complete fuckup of an argument and yet here you are.

Watch the ad homs honey. You broke my argument up into three distinct parts and still found a way to completely miss the point.

Yes, I always stare at the hands of people to make sure they aren't holding a fag.

As I said, damn those ninja smokers. But seriously, smokers are not that particularly difficult to find.

Yes, because we all stare at people's hands when we walk don't we?

I always make sure I sniff people in front of me to detect any trace of cigarette smoke and make sure I dodge them like the plague if they do. I know you're from the country and have probably had minimal experience in any place where pedestrian density is high but you should actually spotting smokers in a crowd, when they can actually be obscured by other people but their smoke isn't.

Playing the parochialism card are we? You can claim that I'm some sort of country bumpkin all you want. That doesn't make your argument any better nor does it escape the fact that you appear to be blind as the bats themselves (and yes, I am aware bats use echos and whatnot to find their way around). But the fact is, I can at least tell who a smoker is and, if I can actually be bothered, take action to make sure my precious fat-filled body doesn't become contaminated with carcinogens that I'll end up breathing anyway from traffic and other air pollution.

Another ad hom! Shit that's three in one post! You don't actually think that non-smokers who dislike cigarette smoke don't try to keep a distance from smokers do you? Tell me more about your brilliant abilities to spot smokers everywhere, even when you can't see them.

Yep, fortunately I always make sure I use my superhuman senses to detect any smoker anywhere and dodge them.

Oh, so that's what you traded your brain for. Boy did you get ripped off.

Or you could use the superhuman sense of sight.

What about when they aren't in your line of sight? See why I think you're a country bumpkin? If you had any experience in large crowds of people you'd actually understand. Get out more.

I have nothing else worry about when walking the streets than dodging smokers and I'm always guaranteed to be able to get away from them. Yep.

You make such a fuss over it, it's like you can't think of anything else. Probably explains why you're wandering around in traffic in the first place.

It's so cute how you argue a different point when you can't think of some other snappy retort.

I don't know, maybe every fucking time they blow a cloud of smoke in a crowd of people?

Because all these ninja smokers are insensitive bastards? Want to know something? I haven't seen any of the actions you describe that apparently are traits of your average smoker.

Odd. Plenty of other people in this thread have. Get out more.

Pedestrians walk on pavement. Buses drive on the road.

Congratulations. You officially know something that they teach you in kindergarten.

If you didn't have a firm grasp on this concept, I wouldn't have needed to point it out, would I?

What happens if I want to avoid a smoker?

Walk around them perhaps? It's not a fucking massive cloud of smoke and most footpaths are wide enough for you to easily walk past without exposing your precious internal organs, provided that these ninja smokers haven't hidden in the crowds of people and are waiting to ambush you.

You should learn how things behave in the gas state.

Does coffee cause society health problems? No? Irrelevant.

The caffeine added to it does. But I find it annoying as you find cigarette smoke annoying. The difference is, I don't want it banned

.
Let me know when you have a study that shows breathing in coffee can leave you with lung cancer.

I don't know, lets start with the fact a trucks exhaust is mounted to exit on top of the vehicle to prevent smoke and more often than not there is a full metre between road and pavement to make way for bike lanes and other parked cars, then let's consider that there isn't any verandas over the road of which to trap the fumes and impede ventilation. Yeah, totally not the same.

Badly maintained, second hand Japanese truck (or bus) with side mounted, low-down exhaust pipe at a set of traffic lights where the cycle lanes are in the middle. Where I live, it's entirely within the realms of possibility.

I find that hard to believe since such a vehicle wouldn't be road worthy and the streets which accommodate central bike lanes but no parking lanes rarely if ever take pedestrians.

If you think city roads have poor ventilation, you obviously haven't seen city footpaths.

I have seen city footpaths. There are more cars than smokers. You do the math. Oh, wait. You traded your brain for defective superpowers so that might be a little difficult.

Remember how I was talking about ventilation? Yeah? That shit I said which you couldn't respond to? Yeah, that's why you're wrong.

Cars produce more air pollution that cigarettes. Ergo they should* be banned.

Yeah, I totally made this argument about how air pollution something makes, certainly not the method of which it's made and the area of which it goes into. Normally I don't stoop so low as telling people to learn to read but it's something you obviously need telling.

[Deamonopolis]

Why do you feel such a sense of entitlement that you don't feel the need to give the slightest fuck about anyone else being affected by your second hand smoke?

I'm not obliged to give any fuck if I am smoking where it's legal and where you have the freedom to move elsewhere. If I am at a bar, smoking outside, do I have to take my drink to the middle of the street so I don't cause harm to others who are there?

The building isn't exactly mine, just one apartment in there. I've no authority to put up such a sign, unless all my neighbors agree to the idea.

Also, I'm not sure if you've realized, but it's possible to, I don't KNOW, go somewhere else which isn't literally in the way of people? Then people can smoke, and I can go home without the health hazard, and everyone can be happy. I don't care about them trying their best to avoid the teachers from the nearby school from catching them, I just wish my doorstep was smokefree.

Propose it to the landlord and get people to sign a petition to enforce it. Don't act powerless against the nefarious doorway smokers when there's a really simple solution.

[Arglorand]

We need to install some secret agency sci-fi doohickies in the door that vaporize any alcohol one brings in, turning it all into orange juice. *nods*

So people would have to walk or bike or bus to get their alcohol?

Alcohol would have to be delivered by a special delivery service. All of them riding bikes *nods*

[Luveria]

We need to install some secret agency sci-fi doohickies in the door that vaporize any alcohol one brings in, turning it all into orange juice. *nods*

So people would have to walk or bike or bus to get their alcohol?

You can order your alcohol online and get it delivered to your door.

I generally agree with a public ban on sidewalks and such. Bigger, more open areas? Not so sold.on that. And very much in favor.of a ban on smoking in restaurants, bars, and shops.

Considering sidewalks are a public space people walk on, a ban on sidewalks would be very reasonable.

[Arglorand]

The building isn't exactly mine, just one apartment in there. I've no authority to put up such a sign, unless all my neighbors agree to the idea.

Also, I'm not sure if you've realized, but it's possible to, I don't KNOW, go somewhere else which isn't literally in the way of people? Then people can smoke, and I can go home without the health hazard, and everyone can be happy. I don't care about them trying their best to avoid the teachers from the nearby school from catching them, I just wish my doorstep was smokefree.

Propose it to the landlord and get people to sign a petition to enforce it. Don't act powerless against the nefarious doorway smokers when there's a really simple solution.

And when it's law to get all the smokers off all the doorsteps, then we won't even have to do petitions, and everyone can just go home.

[Luveria]

Propose it to the landlord and get people to sign a petition to enforce it. Don't act powerless against the nefarious doorway smokers when there's a really simple solution.

And when it's law to get all the smokers off all the doorsteps, then we won't even have to do petitions, and everyone can just go home.

Most landlords don't care if people smoke on the doorsteps because it's not affecting the property, so they don't care.
It's more realistic to make a law getting smokers off doorsteps.

Assuming landlords actually care to listen to their tenants is quite ridiculous.

[Immoren]

Apparently Finnish smoking ban in restaurants and bars was less about protecting customers from second hand smoke, and more about protecting staff from second hand smoke.

[Arglorand]

And when it's law to get all the smokers off all the doorsteps, then we won't even have to do petitions, and everyone can just go home.

Most landlords don't care if people smoke on the doorsteps because it's not affecting the property, so they don't care.
It's more realistic to make a law getting smokers off doorsteps.

Assuming landlords actually care to listen to their tenants is quite ridiculous.

That too. The company that happens to be responsible for our building is based down the stairs from me.

I really don't think they haven't noticed. They're just happy because they've an alternate side entrance.

[Luveria]

Apparently Finnish smoking ban in restaurants and bars was less about protecting customers from second hand smoke, and more about protecting staff from second hand smoke.

I overlooked the restaurant staff suffering from second-hand smoke.

Most landlords don't care if people smoke on the doorsteps because it's not affecting the property, so they don't care.
It's more realistic to make a law getting smokers off doorsteps.

Assuming landlords actually care to listen to their tenants is quite ridiculous.

That too. The company that happens to be responsible for our building is based down the stairs from me.

I really don't think they haven't noticed. They're just happy because they've an alternate side entrance.

Another example is when the majority of tenants are smokers and smoke outside, the landlord isn't going to kindly tell them "please stop smoking around the door because one tenant complained." The way the landlord would see it is they would rather have everyone smoking outside the entrance than smoking inside secretely.

[Arglorand]

Apparently Finnish smoking ban in restaurants and bars was less about protecting customers from second hand smoke, and more about protecting staff from second hand smoke.

I overlooked the restaurant staff suffering from second-hand smoke.

That too. The company that happens to be responsible for our building is based down the stairs from me.

I really don't think they haven't noticed. They're just happy because they've an alternate side entrance.

Another example is when the majority of tenants are smokers and smoke outside, the landlord isn't going to kindly tell them "please stop smoking around the door because one tenant complained." The way the landlord would see it is they would rather have everyone smoking outside the entrance than smoking inside secretely.

Also, allow me to point just one thing out for the sake of accuracy: we're not actually tenants, all of us people living in this building, because we own our apartments.

We just don't own our actual building, namely everything in it that is outside of the apartments.