Michigan considers $10 minimum wage

[Geilinor]

Yes. I am. Both. More specifically, anarcho-monarchist.

I don't know many other ideologies that care so little about people they want minimum wage abolished entirely

Minimum wage can be abolished if we have strong collective bargaining, which America will never have. Scandinavian countries, Germany, and Austria don't even need minimum wages because of collective bargaining.

[Geilinor]

Yeah ten dollars would completely destroy the nation.

No minimum wage in Singapore and I did not see too many homeless bums in the streets.

They hide their poverty. http://sg.news.yahoo.com/blogs/singaporescene/mcys-2011-064401781.html
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/blogs/singaporescene/povery-far-being-erased-society-072047747.html
Singaporean politicians can say "there are no homeless, destitute or starving people in Singapore. Poverty has been eradicated" all they want. It doesn't make it true.

[Patriqvinia]

If it is passed, it should give some very nice insight into how well communities do or do not fare in higher minimum wage areas.

The research has already been displayed in this thread. Raising the minimum wage generally reduces unemployment and brings up living standards.

I posted four studies that found the exact opposite, including one that was conducted as a follow up to a study that showed that raising the minimum wage reduced unemployment.

[Forster Keys]

Yeah ten dollars would completely destroy the nation.

No minimum wage in Singapore and I did not see too many homeless bums in the streets. Singapore's economy is strong and the city-state has a better quality of life than Detroit or Flint offers.

Singapore would say 'cane the gangsters and teach them manners', Michigan would say 'blame the evil capialists and let's help them with welfare.'

Oh, Singapore is actually better off than the USA WITHOUT minimum wage. Why isn't it a cesspool with 90% of people making $1 per hour as liberals would imagine a place with no minimum wage to be?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... y_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... P_(nominal)_per_capita

Notice Haiti, Afghanistan, and Ghana have higher minimum wages than Singapore and they are poorer? Why is this? I thought liberals believed minimum wage means everybody will have good living standards:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mi ... by_country

What a load of nonsense. If you're going to give out examples to prove our points, I'll direct you towards most of the minimum wage using Western world and be done with it.

[Blouman Empire]

I saw the title and thought why are they going to cut it? Then I remembered this is America.

[Luveria]

I don't know many other ideologies that care so little about people they want minimum wage abolished entirely

Minimum wage can be abolished if we have strong collective bargaining, which America will never have. Scandinavian countries, Germany, and Austria don't even need minimum wages because of collective bargaining.

But this isn't the alternative being offered or desired for the USA.

[The Whispers]

I don't know many other ideologies that care so little about people they want minimum wage abolished entirely

Minimum wage can be abolished if we have strong collective bargaining, which America will never have. Scandinavian countries, Germany, and Austria don't even need minimum wages because of collective bargaining.

This is not entirely true.

In the case of Germany, at least, certain industries do have a minimum wage, by law, and there's a precedent that less than 75% of the 'going rate' for an industry-wide rate is an illegally low wage.

I can't say much about Scandinavia or Austria, because I don't know all that much about the law there.

[Greed and Death]

I don't know many other ideologies that care so little about people they want minimum wage abolished entirely

Minimum wage can be abolished if we have strong collective bargaining, which America will never have. Scandinavian countries, Germany, and Austria don't even need minimum wages because of collective bargaining.

Germany also has a right to work.

[Lemanrussland]

Minimum wage sounds like a nice idea in theory, it would be nice to just be able to pass a law that makes everyone's wages go up without any consequences. A high enough minimum wage generally leads to more unemployment, and higher barriers to entry into markets for small businesses and inexperienced unskilled workers. A better solution IMO is a negative income tax.

[The Whispers]

Minimum wage sounds like a nice idea in theory, it would be nice to just be able to pass a law that makes everyone's wages go up without any consequences. A high enough minimum wage generally leads to more unemployment, and higher barriers to entry into markets for small businesses and inexperienced unskilled workers. A better solution IMO is a negative income tax.

How is the state going to pay for this negative income tax?

[Luveria]

Minimum wage sounds like a nice idea in theory, it would be nice to just be able to pass a law that makes everyone's wages go up without any consequences. A high enough minimum wage generally leads to more unemployment, and higher barriers to entry into markets for small businesses and inexperienced unskilled workers. A better solution IMO is a negative income tax.

Having no minimum wage has consequences such as poverty and low living standards. Don't pretend there aren't consequences to no minimum wage.

[Lemanrussland]

Minimum wage sounds like a nice idea in theory, it would be nice to just be able to pass a law that makes everyone's wages go up without any consequences. A high enough minimum wage generally leads to more unemployment, and higher barriers to entry into markets for small businesses and inexperienced unskilled workers. A better solution IMO is a negative income tax.

How is the state going to pay for this negative income tax?

Through general revenues (usually people want a flat tax combined with it, or something like that, though any form of taxation works), you could also consolidate things like old age pensions and welfare programs into it.

[Freiheit Reich]

No minimum wage in Singapore and I did not see too many homeless bums in the streets. Singapore's economy is strong and the city-state has a better quality of life than Detroit or Flint offers.

Singapore would say 'cane the gangsters and teach them manners', Michigan would say 'blame the evil capialists and let's help them with welfare.'

Oh, Singapore is actually better off than the USA WITHOUT minimum wage. Why isn't it a cesspool with 90% of people making $1 per hour as liberals would imagine a place with no minimum wage to be?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... y_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... P_(nominal)_per_capita

Notice Haiti, Afghanistan, and Ghana have higher minimum wages than Singapore and they are poorer? Why is this? I thought liberals believed minimum wage means everybody will have good living standards:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mi ... by_country

What a load of nonsense. If you're going to give out examples to prove our points, I'll direct you towards most of the minimum wage using Western world and be done with it.

Haiti is in the west while Singapore is in the east. Haiti's minimum wage has not helped poverty. Singapore is doing far better than Haiti.

You want a western country with minimum wage: Haiti is a good starting point.

[Lemanrussland]

What a load of nonsense. If you're going to give out examples to prove our points, I'll direct you towards most of the minimum wage using Western world and be done with it.

Haiti is in the west while Singapore is in the east. Haiti's minimum wage has not helped poverty. Singapore is doing far better than Haiti.

You want a western country with minimum wage: Haiti is a good starting point.

I'm sure he means "Western" as "the Occident", he's not referring to geography.

Latin America is not normally bundled in with the other European and former European colonial territories as "the West" (due to their relative poverty compared to the West, mostly), though you could technically include them.

[Luveria]

Haiti is in the west while Singapore is in the east. Haiti's minimum wage has not helped poverty. Singapore is doing far better than Haiti.

You want a western country with minimum wage: Haiti is a good starting point.

I'm sure he means "Western" as "the Occident", he's not referring to geography.

Latin America is not normally bundled in with the other European and former European colonial territories as "the West" (due to their relative poverty compared to the West, mostly), though you could technically include them.

In the same sense you could include Pakistan when naming an asian country.

[Lemanrussland]

I'm sure he means "Western" as "the Occident", he's not referring to geography.

Latin America is not normally bundled in with the other European and former European colonial territories as "the West" (due to their relative poverty compared to the West, mostly), though you could technically include them.

In the same sense you could include Pakistan when naming an asian country.

Latin America is a special case compared to the Eurasian colonies of the European powers, because there was a widespread "settler type" (as opposed to the "exploitation type") colonization in Latin America, and Western culture was disseminated throughout Latin America, with Christianity becoming the dominant religion, and European languages becoming the dominant languages. Latin America stands out from the other "settler type" colonies (like USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa (though South Africa never really was fully colonized by the European settlers)) because of it's poverty and lack of integration into the whole Western alliance system (though many Latin American countries have military alliances with the United States, they aren't part of NATO). This is why it's usually excluded from the "Western nations".

[Freiheit Reich]

I'm sure he means "Western" as "the Occident", he's not referring to geography.

Latin America is not normally bundled in with the other European and former European colonial territories as "the West" (due to their relative poverty compared to the West, mostly), though you could technically include them.

In the same sense you could include Pakistan when naming an asian country.

Yes, Haiti is in North America. Pakistan and Yemen are in Asia and Egypt is in Africa. If you want to be specific than say East Asia, Central Asia, Middle East, and South Asia.

Latin American nations are western nations. They have heavy cultural influences from Spain and other Europeans nations, especially Argentina, Uruguay, and Chile.

Mexico is pretty influenced as well, they have democracy and they are Catholic.

Western does not equal highly developed.

[Lemanrussland]

In the same sense you could include Pakistan when naming an asian country.

Yes, Haiti is in North America. Pakistan and Yemen are in Asia and Egypt is in Africa. If you want to be specific than say East Asia, Central Asia, Middle East, and South Asia.

Latin American nations are western nations. They have heavy cultural influences from Spain and other Europeans nations, especially Argentina, Uruguay, and Chile.

Mexico is pretty influenced as well, they have democracy and they are Catholic.

Western does not equal highly developed.

Scholars still normally distinguish Latin American nations from the "West", though. They are a sub-category or related "civilization" (if you want to use that word), mostly because of their economic status.

[Reichsland]

On a simpler note, if this bill passes then I will be making a whopping 97 cents more per hour at FedEx than I could at an average job in Michigan.

[Sibirsky]

Minimum wage sounds like a nice idea in theory, it would be nice to just be able to pass a law that makes everyone's wages go up without any consequences. A high enough minimum wage generally leads to more unemployment, and higher barriers to entry into markets for small businesses and inexperienced unskilled workers. A better solution IMO is a negative income tax.

Having no minimum wage has consequences such as poverty and low living standards. Don't pretend there aren't consequences to no minimum wage.

Right!

Because getting paid $5 creates poverty compared to getting paid $0.

[Sibirsky]

How is the state going to pay for this negative income tax?

Through general revenues (usually people want a flat tax combined with it, or something like that, though any form of taxation works), you could also consolidate things like old age pensions and welfare programs into it.

I like it.

[Imperiatom]

Minimum wage goes up, i put up my prices, I collect back the money i lost through the higher wage costs, through higher prices. Inflation rises further and the worker is not any better off.

It just costs the government money to implement.

There's one tiny problem with your theory: You assume that your customers are just going to go along with whatever price increase you decide to implement. But what if they don't?

<pause>

Because you know they don't have to, right? They can just tell you to go fuck off. And its not like they're going to stupidly say, "Oh, O.K...." when you explain that the ebil gubbermint has just jacked up your wages, and so you've got to raise your prices to maintain your profits. No, they're going to say, "That's your problem," because in fact your customers don't give a good God-damn about your profits; they just want to get the best deal they can.

So basically your stuck. You can't raise your prices, because your customers won't pay the added amount; that means the difference has to come out of your profits, and if you can't stay in business at your new, lower profit level, well then that's that. Otherwise, you just have to eat the loss and keep going,

Because remember, if you could raise prices without losing customers, then you'd have probably already done so even before the government raised the minimum wage; in fact, you'd be a damned fool if you hadn't. I mean, charging what the market will bear and pocketing the difference is what free market capitalism is all about.

Well they have been going along for nearly thirty years so all things being equal, Hears to thirty more!

[Imperiatom]

What about my experience as a director and wage setter?

What happened to the "free market"? I'm sure you're aware that neoclassical theory pretends that everyone has equal bargaining power, thus preventing the over-accumulation of surpluses by one group or another - and I'm also sure that you're aware that this whole "free market means freedom!" mantra is what the Right buys into so heavily in justifying their deregulations. By calling yourself a "wage setter" (i.e., someone who can set the price of a particular good irrespective of its actual value), you're acknowledging that the system is broken....and that you, personally, are exploiting that breakage for your personal gain.

People like you are - by your own admission - why the market should be regulated.

Lucky i support the both the right and free market economics. I am thatcher incarnate.

[Curiosityness]

sounds great and all but that would cause everything else to go up in price, so making everything else more expensive dosent sound very cool to me and would probably just mess things up

[Phocidaea]

I discussed this with my dim younger brother (two year's difference, not that bad), and he thinks that minimum wages only apply to the government. That is, he thinks that minimum wages only effect the government that passes them, which, as I pointed out, is just stupid.