Feminists sabotage yet another talk on men's equality

[New Edom]

And that's just the introduction. There's a whole flowchart of material you have to work through once she answers.

Hold up, no fucking way? Like there's a manual on this? Is there a gay version?

This is the funny thing--joking aside--it's something people do need to learn to do. This is why I harp on the issue--yes means yes, no means no is not enough. We need to have working models of how to approach other people.

Btw, my cousin's approach to the gay version was being funny, it seemed to work well.

[The Emerald Dawn]

"I notice that you have a law book sitting next to you, are you studying law, or is it just an interest?"

What if she doesn't have a law book sitting next to her? What then Mr./Mrs. Suave?

Then you analyze what she DOES have sitting around her, and talk about it.

If she has nothing, take a guess about a topic common to the location you're in. If you're in a wine bar, talk about the local vineyards. If you're in a coffee shop (non-Starbucks), talk about the increase in coffee prices. Use context clues from her answers to steer towards less "vague" topics and onto things she's interested in. If she leans in, she's interested. If she folds her arms, she's not.

And that's just the introduction. There's a whole flowchart of material you have to work through once she answers.

Hold up, no fucking way? Like there's a manual on this? Is there a gay version?

Yes.

[Ovisterra]

I note that in all cases, the reaction you supposedly "must" have is "thinking something to yourself until someone specifically asks for your opinion."

This seems like a perfectly adequate reaction to other people's clothing choices as well.

Alright. But since the Warren Farrell thing and the recent thing were outbursts in part at least connected with anger about consent issues, I wonder then what from a feminist perspective an appropriate way to express attraction is?

I once just sent someone this link on Facebook.

[Algonquin Ascendancy]

I was following until the Short Skirt part. What exactly is so confusing about wearing a short skirt and not wanting undesired sexual attention?

It's very important that women remember their public existence has to be centered around the fact that occasionally men feel ways about stuff and this automatically becomes your problem.

Even if I'm naked, that isn't automatically an invitation to sex, Ininiwiyaw.

[The Truth and Light]

What if she doesn't have a law book sitting next to her? What then Mr./Mrs. Suave?

Then you analyze what she DOES have sitting around her, and talk about it.

If she has nothing, take a guess about a topic common to the location you're in. If you're in a wine bar, talk about the local vineyards. If you're in a coffee shop (non-Starbucks), talk about the increase in coffee prices. Use context clues from her answers to steer towards less "vague" topics and onto things she's interested in. If she leans in, she's interested. If she folds her arms, she's not.

Hold up, no fucking way? Like there's a manual on this? Is there a gay version?

Yes.

Like, oh my god, can I have a link? I have to have this, please and thank you?

[Ovisterra]

What if she doesn't have a law book sitting next to her? What then Mr./Mrs. Suave?

That's why you carry a law book around with you.

Discreetly drop it on the bar/table beside them.

[New England and The Maritimes]

It's very important that women remember their public existence has to be centered around the fact that occasionally men feel ways about stuff and this automatically becomes your problem.

Even if I'm naked, that isn't automatically an invitation to sex, Ininiwiyaw.

I'm being facetious, Makki dear.

[Occupied Deutschland]

That's why you carry a law book around with you.

Discreetly drop it on the bar/table beside them.

Hey, perfect setup for a "I'm taking the BAR exam tonight." wisecrack.

[New Edom]

Alright. But since the Warren Farrell thing and the recent thing were outbursts in part at least connected with anger about consent issues, I wonder then what from a feminist perspective an appropriate way to express attraction is?

While things of this nature are going to vary wildly from culture to culture, location to location, and, indeed, individual to individual, I think the feminist movement as a whole would be overjoyed if everyone could at least internalize the answer to that question is "not rape"

Seriously, you think the feminist movement is, on the whole, worried about things like "teach men the exact proper precise way that it's appropriate to flirt with women". The feminist movement, on the whole, is more concerned with "don't rape them"

I was watching this symposium led by Eve Ensler with a panel of men talking about the importance of dismantling rape culture, and yes it did talk about consent. The concern was about how for example the Steubenville thing could have happened, and with all due respect it is not enough to just say 'don't rape'. A young woman in the audience during the Q&A raised just the same point you did, and I felt that while her passion for a more just and safe society was very understandable, that the panel and Eve herself were right in saying that part of getting there is establishing a stronger sense of ethics socially in an in depth kind of way. I've talked to people who actually don't know what rape IS. It may seem obvious to a well educated person who has given it a lot of thought, but I actually don't think it is to enough people that it should be cause for concern. And I have found that in educating people who are not well educated that you often need to start with very basic concepts, and it needs to be enough about what to do positively as it is about what not to do.

[Ovisterra]

Discreetly drop it on the bar/table beside them.

Hey, perfect setup for a "I'm taking the BAR exam tonight." wisecrack.

Wow, you're worse than me with my "Are you tired? Because you've been running through my mind all day" cracks.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Hey, perfect setup for a "I'm taking the BAR exam tonight." wisecrack.

Wow, you're worse than me with my "Are you tired? Because you've been running through my mind all day" cracks.

"Nice shoes, wanna fuck?"

[Nailed to the Perch]

I note that in all cases, the reaction you supposedly "must" have is "thinking something to yourself until someone specifically asks for your opinion."

This seems like a perfectly adequate reaction to other people's clothing choices as well.

Alright. But since the Warren Farrell thing and the recent thing were outbursts in part at least connected with anger about consent issues, I wonder then what from a feminist perspective an appropriate way to express attraction is?

Politely, respectfully, and with a willingness to take "no" (or obvious things indicating "no") for an answer. (Also, sometimes "not at all." Do not, for example, hit on strange people in an enclosed space where they have no way to get away from you if you turn out to be scary or violent. YOU may know you're a reasonable person who will respond to, "Sorry, not interested," by saying, "That's cool, have a nice day," but THEY don't know that.)

[Choronzon]

Hold up, no fucking way? Like there's a manual on this? Is there a gay version?

This is the funny thing--joking aside--it's something people do need to learn to do. This is why I harp on the issue--yes means yes, no means no is not enough. We need to have working models of how to approach other people.

Btw, my cousin's approach to the gay version was being funny, it seemed to work well.

Well, maybe you need someone to hold your hand through social interaction...

[Samuraikoku]

If she has nothing, take a guess about a topic common to the location you're in. If you're in a wine bar, talk about the local vineyards. If you're in a coffee shop (non-Starbucks), talk about the increase in coffee prices. Use context clues from her answers to steer towards less "vague" topics and onto things she's interested in. If she leans in, she's interested. If she folds her arms, she's not.

Nothing brings out "The Emperor Protects".

[Algonquin Ascendancy]

Even if I'm naked, that isn't automatically an invitation to sex, Ininiwiyaw.

I'm being facetious, Makki dear.

Ah... It seemed out of place for you to say...
My statement still stands, just not directed specicifically at you.

[Mavorpen]

Wow, you're worse than me with my "Are you tired? Because you've been running through my mind all day" cracks.

"Nice shoes, wanna fuck?"

No no, you're doing it wrong. If Drake and Josh taught me anything, it's that if you tell a female they have nice shoes and walk away, they'll immediately crave your penis.

[Neo Art]

And I have found that in educating people who are not well educated that you often need to start with very basic concepts, and it needs to be enough about what to do positively as it is about what not to do.

Again, if you have made it to adulthood without somehow learning the most basic concepts of social interaction and socially acceptable norms, than I am not qualified to help you.

[Ovisterra]

Wow, you're worse than me with my "Are you tired? Because you've been running through my mind all day" cracks.

"Nice shoes, wanna fuck?"

Or the classic and possibly best, which is to look them up and down, put your hand over your mouth and go "Oh dayum!"

[New England and The Maritimes]

Wow, you're worse than me with my "Are you tired? Because you've been running through my mind all day" cracks.

"Nice shoes, wanna fuck?"

"If I could rearrange the alphabet, I'd really wanna fuck you."

[New Edom]

Women have had the privilege of being paid court to, being paid for, being held to a lower standard while being provided for. Now having said this: being a child in status is not something to be envied. You are terribly vulnerable; you are dependent upon the kindness of others, and if it is not there, have little defense against cruelty. Privilege is not always something good.

And I'm sorry but the one feminist I definitely agree with is bell hooks, who states that oppression affects more than just women, and that women have been party to both the oppression of other women and of men. It's not just about patriarchy being men abusing women. So when bell hooks talks about male privilege she emphasizes that it is not actually GOOD for men, but toxic, that it leads to death, abuse, and misery. You take the abuse that women have suffered at the hands of men, and I will gladly grant that but point out the abuse men have suffered as well. Suffering is not a zero sum game.

We are talking about a group of human beings that have for a very long time been mistreated, abused and objectified by another group of human beings. What you are attempting to do is absolve men of some of the responsibility of their actions by claiming that privilege is not always good (please further explain this, it makes no sense), claiming that some of the oppression stems from other women (which is a heirarchy that is the direct result of having to survive in a society controlled by men), and that male privilege harms men ( whats so harmful about a patriarchy to straight men?). Even if you don't mean to erase the responsiblities, you are.

This courting ritual which you describe is not a privilege. It is a form of slavery in which women must remain in the servitude of men, whether or not it seems evident to you. It is simply a ritual in which a women must prove herself a good wife and housemaid, and in the process give up herself.

It is also extremely insulting that you would think women are held to a lower standard while being provided for. This is not only a very lazy analysis, but just plain wrong. Women throughout history have had to work extremely hard and look great doing it to please men.

And men have often died trying to please women. Let me ask you this though, since you think I'm doing a lazy analysis: can you give me the sources of your views? I've probably read them and would be delighted to discuss that in depth if you are interested.

[Neo Art]

"I notice that you have a law book sitting next to you, are you studying law, or is it just an interest?"

What if she doesn't have a law book sitting next to her? What then Mr./Mrs. Suave?

I'm vaguelly curious as to why someone would want to approach someone without even a single identifiable common interest, but oh well, beggars can't be choosers maybe?

[Ovisterra]

"Nice shoes, wanna fuck?"

"If I could rearrange the alphabet, I'd really wanna fuck you."

"Are you tired? Because if not, can we fuck?"

[New England and The Maritimes]

What if she doesn't have a law book sitting next to her? What then Mr./Mrs. Suave?

I'm vaguelly curious as to why someone would want to approach someone without even a single identifiable common interest, but oh well, beggars can't be choosers maybe?

The more people I approach the better the odds!

[The Emerald Dawn]

"Nice shoes, wanna fuck?"

No no, you're doing it wrong. If Drake and Josh taught me anything, it's that if you tell a female they have nice shoes and walk away, they'll immediately crave your penis.

If you're using "Teen Nick" shows to teach you social interaction, you win the coveted "Loser of the Evening" prize.

"Nice shoes, wanna fuck?"

Or the classic and possibly best, which is to look them up and down, put your hand over your mouth and go "Oh dayum!"

But you have to dip your shoulder like the force of their sexitude is knocking you off balance.

[Samuraikoku]

I'm vaguelly curious as to why someone would want to approach someone without even a single identifiable common interest, but oh well, beggars can't be choosers maybe?

I've got a real life answer: Your interests are incompatible with everyone else's.