Feminists sabotage yet another talk on men's equality

[The New Sea Territory]

Stop complaining and expecting the state to do stuff for you. Women are physically different than men, and if you deny that your are denying reality. Why not accept reality and make the best of the situation, instead of complaining that men are SO....LIKE OMG Abusive. Men and their dicks!

I give up.

Good. Give up your pointless argument. Now move on to things that actually matter. Feminism, in "quotas for equal work", hurt economics and it essentially revolts against all nature and order. Why don't you just be a regular socialist, or general leftist.

[Lantianguo]

Ehhehhhehhh... the problem is, the term "feminism" is a completely meaningless term these days. Authentic problems within subsets of the movement struggle to be tamed because attacks on them are dismissed as misogyny because of the reputation of the usual critics, while the really nitty-gritty stuff that many of the other subsets have right are dismissed because of the reputation of the usual feminists. We hence have this crazy in-group-out-group ideological purity bullshit that manifests in some of the biggest social inertia I have ever seen. Nobody can have a conversation without the extremes taking control, and nobody's willing to tame their extremes. It really is disgraceful.

Like seriously, I can't even identify as a feminist right now because of the inability of the movement at large to curtail the rampant transphobia that threatens my core human rights. In almost any other liberal movement this was a solved issue sometime in the past decade. Not to mention there's all sorts of stupid authoritarian crap, like the free speech issue we're seeing here. I'm glad to see other feminists here agree. It's good that we got some proper self-reflection on the movement, rather than having the proponents fall victim to dismissing criticism as stemming from misogynists. I'd like to see some similar self-reflection from the other side now.

[Natapoc]

I can't even. Are you talking about corporate feminism? Because I can't even begin to digest where you're gotten this idea from. What about code pink? What about slutwalk? what about the pro-choice demonstrations? what about the Vagina Monologues? What about bell hooks? What about Toni Morrison? What about Audre Lorde? What about Steubenville? What about Raetah? What about Project Unbreakable? I mean there is so much to feminism, how can you actually just speak like that?

I'm talking about feminist organizations. I spoke out of turn and too broadly. (The long standing, """multi-issue""" organizations.)

Is your whole issue just with feminist organizations? Because if so, that's something else entirely. Of my feminist friends only a few of the older ones really give a care what the big orgs think about anything.

[United Dependencies]

Good. Give up your pointless argument. Now move on to things that actually matter.

Go tell that to victims of sexual violence.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm talking about feminist organizations. I spoke out of turn and too broadly. (The long standing, """multi-issue""" organizations.)

Is your whole issue just with feminist organizations? Because if so, that's something else entirely. Of my feminist friends only a few of the older ones really give a care what the big orgs think about anything.

Yes, essentially. I keep telling feminists that if they don't like me judging them by their organizations they should shape up and make a better one, but they just keep insisting i shouldn't judge them by, you know, their organized efforts.

[Natapoc]

Is your whole issue just with feminist organizations? Because if so, that's something else entirely. Of my feminist friends only a few of the older ones really give a care what the big orgs think about anything.

Yes, essentially. I keep telling feminists that if they don't like me judging them by their organizations they should shape up and make a better one, but they just keep insisting i shouldn't judge them by, you know, their organized efforts.

What are anarcho-feminists supposed to do? Most of us prefer local non hierarchical organizations that are effective and allow us to be involved to accomplish things meaningful to us in our communities without the overhead of a big org.

[The Lone Alliance]

Actually looking through history I've yet to find a single group that has not been oppressed at least once.

Should we all just sit back and call ourselves victims forever?

[Ostroeuropa]

Yes, essentially. I keep telling feminists that if they don't like me judging them by their organizations they should shape up and make a better one, but they just keep insisting i shouldn't judge them by, you know, their organized efforts.

What are anarcho-feminists supposed to do? Most of us prefer local non hierarchical organizations that are effective and allow us to be involved to accomplish things meaningful to us in our communities without the overhead of a big org.

I dunno, stop being anarchists and such I suppose. At least that's an actual difference of opinion on how to organize as opposed to bullshit from the main orgs. I can cope with it.

[Natapoc]

Actually looking through history I've yet to find a single group that has not been oppressed at least once.

Should we all just sit back and call ourselves victims forever?

The rich, as a class, have never been oppressed.

[Ostroeuropa]

Actually looking through history I've yet to find a single group that has not been oppressed at least once.

Should we all just sit back and call ourselves victims forever?

The rich, as a class, have never been oppressed.

...
*waves a red flag*

[Agymnum]

Actually looking through history I've yet to find a single group that has not been oppressed at least once.

Should we all just sit back and call ourselves victims forever?

The rich, as a class, have never been oppressed.

Somehow I feel someone's going to bring up progressive tax rates as an example of the rich being oppressed.

I just have the feeling in my bones.

[New England and The Maritimes]

Actually looking through history I've yet to find a single group that has not been oppressed at least once.

Should we all just sit back and call ourselves victims forever?

The rich, as a class, have never been oppressed.

Of course, there's also the simple point that he is making shit up when he brings up "lets call ourselves victims" as if we haven't made it a part of our core being to raise awareness and do more by spreading the message and trying to educate people and include them in the broader conversation.

[Ostroeuropa]

The rich, as a class, have never been oppressed.

Somehow I feel someone's going to bring up progressive tax rates as an example of the rich being oppressed.

I just have the feeling in my bones.

I was thinking more
"Shoot anyone who owns property comrades!"

[Agymnum]

Somehow I feel someone's going to bring up progressive tax rates as an example of the rich being oppressed.

I just have the feeling in my bones.

I was thinking more
"Shoot anyone who owns property comrades!"

You mean the communists who aren't really communist?

I love it when people associate me with them. So fun.

[Natapoc]

What are anarcho-feminists supposed to do? Most of us prefer local non hierarchical organizations that are effective and allow us to be involved to accomplish things meaningful to us in our communities without the overhead of a big org.

I dunno, stop being anarchists and such I suppose. At least that's an actual difference of opinion on how to organize as opposed to bullshit from the main orgs. I can cope with it.

I think you also may be overestimating the reach of some orgs. I just talked with a friend who has been arguing in favor of and speaking about feminism for years and she had never even heard of NOW.

[The Lone Alliance]

Actually looking through history I've yet to find a single group that has not been oppressed at least once.

Should we all just sit back and call ourselves victims forever?

The rich, as a class, have never been oppressed.

Except for the times when they piss the people on the bottom off enough for them to kill them. Does that count?

But true the plutocrats tend to always have the upper hand no matter what, if you have enough money it doesn't matter.

[Ostroeuropa]

I was thinking more
"Shoot anyone who owns property comrades!"

You mean the communists who aren't really communist?

I love it when people associate me with them. So fun.

No no, I meant as an example of the rich being oppressed. I'm fairly sure the bolsheviks and similar did call eachother comrade.
Even if its nowhere near as much as we like to pretend.

[Freelanderness]

What are anarcho-feminists supposed to do? Most of us prefer local non hierarchical organizations that are effective and allow us to be involved to accomplish things meaningful to us in our communities without the overhead of a big org.

I dunno, stop being anarchists and such I suppose. At least that's an actual difference of opinion on how to organize as opposed to bullshit from the main orgs. I can cope with it.

I have to say there is relatively low support of the main orgs from those who are critical feminists. There is a group of white, cisgendered, middle to upper class women who are interested in keeping things the way they are. The main orgs are generally supported by this group, and as such, have an extremely limited approach to racism, or transphobia, or really, any kind of actual critique. Hell, I could sit here and critique them all day. I am much more interested in the behaviour of those who are not in "the business" of feminism, but rather who take a personal interest in it. You understand?

[Agymnum]

You mean the communists who aren't really communist?

I love it when people associate me with them. So fun.

No no, I meant as an example of the rich being oppressed. I'm fairly sure the bolsheviks and similar did call eachother comrade.
Even if its nowhere near as much as we like to pretend.

The rich have never really been oppressed, per se. I mean, if you think about it, the only time you can say they're being oppressed is when they're being slaughtered by their lower classes in revenge for all the oppression they perpetuated against them.

So basically, the only time the rich get oppressed is in response to their oppression of others over a long period of time.

[Occupied Deutschland]

The rich, as a class, have never been oppressed.

Until the revolution comes and they are the first up against the wall.

[Ostroeuropa]

I dunno, stop being anarchists and such I suppose. At least that's an actual difference of opinion on how to organize as opposed to bullshit from the main orgs. I can cope with it.

I have to say there is relatively low support of the main orgs from those who are critical feminists. There is a group of white, cisgendered, middle to upper class women who are interested in keeping things the way they are. The main orgs are generally supported by this group, and as such, have an extremely limited approach to racism, or transphobia, or really, any kind of actual critique. Hell, I could sit here and critique them all day. I am much more interested in the behaviour of those who are not in "the business" of feminism, but rather who take a personal interest in it. You understand?

Navel gazers or professional victims. The two types of feminist.
Those who do no good but think they know how, and those who do no good and don't care.
I still think it's a completely ineffective ideology, and I cite the main orgs as my major reason.

[Agymnum]

The rich, as a class, have never been oppressed.

Until the revolution comes and they are the first up against the wall.

Well, it's not like they're being oppressed completely out of the blue. They've been using the lower classes as their wage slaves for quite a while, so I mean...

[Occupied Deutschland]

Until the revolution comes and they are the first up against the wall.

Well, it's not like they're being oppressed completely out of the blue. They've been using the lower classes as their wage slaves for quite a while, so I mean...

That seems to be generalizing a great deal.

[Agymnum]

Well, it's not like they're being oppressed completely out of the blue. They've been using the lower classes as their wage slaves for quite a while, so I mean...

That seems to be generalizing a great deal.

Well, the revolution usually doesn't happen in places where the lower classes are happy. If there's lower class dissent due to perceived wrongs by the upper class, of course the upper class is going to be pushed against a wall. Human nature.

[Freelanderness]

I have to say there is relatively low support of the main orgs from those who are critical feminists. There is a group of white, cisgendered, middle to upper class women who are interested in keeping things the way they are. The main orgs are generally supported by this group, and as such, have an extremely limited approach to racism, or transphobia, or really, any kind of actual critique. Hell, I could sit here and critique them all day. I am much more interested in the behaviour of those who are not in "the business" of feminism, but rather who take a personal interest in it. You understand?

Navel gazers or professional victims. The two types of feminist.
Those who do no good but think they know how, and those who do no good and don't care.
I still think it's a completely ineffective ideology, and I cite the main orgs as my major reason.

... I think that your purported "naval gazers" have done a hell of a lot. You know, like gaining the right to vote, or uh, allowing women into the work place. That wasn't corporate fem, that was the real shit. They're also doing a lot in regards to changing people's ideas about non heteronormative gender identity and sexual orientation alongside the LGBT movement, as well as highlighting racism within the movement as a whole and working to change that. So I guess you can say they're useless, but that's just like, your opinion man.