Wiccans fired over Samhain trip to Salem, MA.

[Katganistan]

Two (or more) people initially buy some property, and they have some agreement among themselves to deal with situations in which they're not all in agreement on what to do, and then later on they let others in provided they also accept the terms of that agreement (or whatever other terms they wish to attach).

This one would seem to be the relevant one in this case. If you had read the thread you would realize that one of the conditions these shareholders vest authority to their store manager under, is that she does not discriminate on basis of sex , politics or religion. One of the other conditions of her vested authority is that she does not use her position to break any laws. They also agreed with their employee that she would be treated in accordance with those policies and laws. This was an agreement that they had entered into voluntarily about conditional use of their property.

Were that true you'd be right, but I don't see that being mentioned anywhere.

Furthermore, the fired employee still wouldn't have any authority to make a court case. The shareholders can deal with the manager however they wish, and they can choose to reinstate the employee if they wish--but it's still not a matter for the courts, absent a conflict between the shareholders themselves over the terms of their agreement.

Don't think you quite grasp the concept of corporate law....

No, you simply don't grasp the entirety of my argument.

I do not promote ideas in an intellectual vacuum, but rather in the context of all the other ideas I promote.

I don't care what "wrongful termination" law says, because such law is inherently illegitimate. I was talking about an agent of the shareholders violating an internal policy of the shareholders.

Except that's not what happened here, that's not how the company spoken of is structured, and the laws of the land are held to be legitimate by both those in authority AND the company owners, who are JUST as fast to use said laws and courts when those same laws and courts favor them.

Please keep to the topic and leave your theories for your own thread.

[Tekania]

No, you simply don't grasp the entirety of my argument.

I do not promote ideas in an intellectual vacuum, but rather in the context of all the other ideas I promote.

I don't care what "wrongful termination" law says, because such law is inherently illegitimate. I was talking about an agent of the shareholders violating an internal policy of the shareholders.

No it's legitimate.... At least here in the REAL world it is.... You want to take part in a free soceity, you have to play by a free soceities rules....

Not really all that concerned about that make-believe la-la-land drug induced dream-world of which you occupy.

Here in the REAL world we had to make employment rules to keep corporations from exploiting the populace using deceptive practices and force (which they were in fact doing)... See, these rules didn't just materialize out of thin air for no apparent reason but to "enslave" some corporate goon.... These rules surfaced because corporate goons could not refrain from exploiting the populace by any means at their disposal; and since they left soceity in general but with two options (voiding the existance of corporate goons or regulating their practice).... We chose the options which at least allowed them the chance to still exist... The only person who is the least concerned about wanting to end such regulations is one who is not ethically sound enough to be allowed to practice within business in the first place...

[Threlizdun]

When will people accept that we are not Satan worshipers?!?! Satan is a Abrahamic (Judaism, Christianity, Islam are primary examples) religious concept. I personally may believe that all gods and goddesses from every religion exist, rather than just the pagan ones as most Wiccans do. However, he is typically not reconized as a diety or quasi-diety amongst the faith. He is, as most Non-Abrahamic religions, considered to be the dark side of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. Besides, even if she really was a Satan worshiper, she can't be fired for it. I'm sorry, but the Church of Satan is an established organization. It is fully legal, therefore your actions against such people is completely intolerant. Despite how much harm Christianity has done to paganism in the past, and how many intolerant worshipers still persecute against us today, I must reconize that every religion has extremists, and that the main reason their are so many intolerant members is because it is the largest religion in the world. I do find it terribly unfortanate at how this man has set a horrible example for his faith. I know one man cannot reperesent his entire faith, but this certainly is not advancing global acceptance.

[Pope Joan]

The United Methodist Conference (administrative oversight sort of unit) that covers New Mexico was given a hefty fine and directed to reinstate a witch they had fired.

They said, with perhaps some justification, that their clientele/membership were upset at having to deal with an acknowledged witch.

If a church organization has to toe the line with EOE rules, you can bet Bed and Bath would.

[Callisdrun]

Two (or more) people initially buy some property, and they have some agreement among themselves to deal with situations in which they're not all in agreement on what to do, and then later on they let others in provided they also accept the terms of that agreement (or whatever other terms they wish to attach).

This one would seem to be the relevant one in this case. If you had read the thread you would realize that one of the conditions these shareholders vest authority to their store manager under, is that she does not discriminate on basis of sex , politics or religion. One of the other conditions of her vested authority is that she does not use her position to break any laws. They also agreed with their employee that she would be treated in accordance with those policies and laws. This was an agreement that they had entered into voluntarily about conditional use of their property.

Were that true you'd be right, but I don't see that being mentioned anywhere.

Furthermore, the fired employee still wouldn't have any authority to make a court case. The shareholders can deal with the manager however they wish, and they can choose to reinstate the employee if they wish--but it's still not a matter for the courts, absent a conflict between the shareholders themselves over the terms of their agreement.

Don't think you quite grasp the concept of corporate law....

No, you simply don't grasp the entirety of my argument.

I do not promote ideas in an intellectual vacuum, but rather in the context of all the other ideas I promote.

I don't care what "wrongful termination" law says, because such law is inherently illegitimate. I was talking about an agent of the shareholders violating an internal policy of the shareholders.

Except that's not what happened here, that's not how the company spoken of is structured, and the laws of the land are held to be legitimate by both those in authority AND the company owners, who are JUST as fast to use said laws and courts when those same laws and courts favor them.

Please keep to the topic and leave your theories for your own thread.

Yes, in the real world, people can enact what laws they see fit, provided they are not in violation of the legal framework that the people have decided to use, in this case, the US Constitution. So, claiming that the law is "inherently illegitimate" is laughable, as it's perfectly legal and binding as per the legal system in use. Claiming that it is not so, as Bluth seems to be doing, amounts basically to "BAWWWW! I don't like it!"

[Wilgrove]

When will people accept that we are not Satan worshipers?!?! Satan is a Abrahamic (Judaism, Christianity, Islam are primary examples) religious concept. I personally may believe that all gods and goddesses from every religion exist, rather than just the pagan ones as most Wiccans do. However, he is typically not reconized as a diety or quasi-diety amongst the faith. He is, as most Non-Abrahamic religions, considered to be the dark side of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. Besides, even if she really was a Satan worshiper, she can't be fired for it. I'm sorry, but the Church of Satan is an established organization. It is fully legal, therefore your actions against such people is completely intolerant. Despite how much harm Christianity has done to paganism in the past, and how many intolerant worshipers still persecute against us today, I must reconize that every religion has extremists, and that the main reason their are so many intolerant members is because it is the largest religion in the world. I do find it terribly unfortanate at how this man has set a horrible example for his faith. I know one man cannot reperesent his entire faith, but this certainly is not advancing global acceptance.

Hard Core Fundie Christians will never accept that we aren't Devil Worshipers because The Bible does say that anything that isn't of The Lord (IE The Abrahamic Religion), is the work of The Devil. So since we do not follow Judaism, Christianity or Islam, we are Devil Worshipers.

[RightLeaningChristians]

When will people accept that we are not Satan worshipers?!?! Satan is a Abrahamic (Judaism, Christianity, Islam are primary examples) religious concept. I personally may believe that all gods and goddesses from every religion exist, rather than just the pagan ones as most Wiccans do. However, he is typically not reconized as a diety or quasi-diety amongst the faith. He is, as most Non-Abrahamic religions, considered to be the dark side of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. Besides, even if she really was a Satan worshiper, she can't be fired for it. I'm sorry, but the Church of Satan is an established organization. It is fully legal, therefore your actions against such people is completely intolerant. Despite how much harm Christianity has done to paganism in the past, and how many intolerant worshipers still persecute against us today, I must reconize that every religion has extremists, and that the main reason their are so many intolerant members is because it is the largest religion in the world. I do find it terribly unfortanate at how this man has set a horrible example for his faith. I know one man cannot reperesent his entire faith, but this certainly is not advancing global acceptance.

Christians will never accept that we aren't the Anti-Christ because The Bible does say that anything that isn't of The Lord, is the work of The Devil. So since we do not follow Christianity, we are the Anti-Christ.

Agreed.


Pagan.

[Maurepas]

When will people accept that we are not Satan worshipers?!?! Satan is a Abrahamic (Judaism, Christianity, Islam are primary examples) religious concept. I personally may believe that all gods and goddesses from every religion exist, rather than just the pagan ones as most Wiccans do. However, he is typically not reconized as a diety or quasi-diety amongst the faith. He is, as most Non-Abrahamic religions, considered to be the dark side of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. Besides, even if she really was a Satan worshiper, she can't be fired for it. I'm sorry, but the Church of Satan is an established organization. It is fully legal, therefore your actions against such people is completely intolerant. Despite how much harm Christianity has done to paganism in the past, and how many intolerant worshipers still persecute against us today, I must reconize that every religion has extremists, and that the main reason their are so many intolerant members is because it is the largest religion in the world. I do find it terribly unfortanate at how this man has set a horrible example for his faith. I know one man cannot reperesent his entire faith, but this certainly is not advancing global acceptance.

Hard Core Fundie Christians will never accept that we aren't Devil Worshipers because The Bible does say that anything that isn't of The Lord (IE The Abrahamic Religion), is the work of The Devil. So since we do not follow Judaism, Christianity or Islam, we are Devil Worshipers.

I was called a Satanist just for being in a band that didnt sing about Christianity,

"If you arent singing for the Lord, youre singing for the Devil" dumbest thing Ive ever heard,

[Callisdrun]

When will people accept that we are not Satan worshipers?!?! Satan is a Abrahamic (Judaism, Christianity, Islam are primary examples) religious concept. I personally may believe that all gods and goddesses from every religion exist, rather than just the pagan ones as most Wiccans do. However, he is typically not reconized as a diety or quasi-diety amongst the faith. He is, as most Non-Abrahamic religions, considered to be the dark side of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. Besides, even if she really was a Satan worshiper, she can't be fired for it. I'm sorry, but the Church of Satan is an established organization. It is fully legal, therefore your actions against such people is completely intolerant. Despite how much harm Christianity has done to paganism in the past, and how many intolerant worshipers still persecute against us today, I must reconize that every religion has extremists, and that the main reason their are so many intolerant members is because it is the largest religion in the world. I do find it terribly unfortanate at how this man has set a horrible example for his faith. I know one man cannot reperesent his entire faith, but this certainly is not advancing global acceptance.

Christians will never accept that we aren't the Anti-Christ because The Bible does say that anything that isn't of The Lord, is the work of The Devil. So since we do not follow Christianity, we are the Anti-Christ.

Agreed.


Pagan.

It's a term Wilgrove wears as a badge of pride (as I do).

When will people accept that we are not Satan worshipers?!?! Satan is a Abrahamic (Judaism, Christianity, Islam are primary examples) religious concept. I personally may believe that all gods and goddesses from every religion exist, rather than just the pagan ones as most Wiccans do. However, he is typically not reconized as a diety or quasi-diety amongst the faith. He is, as most Non-Abrahamic religions, considered to be the dark side of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. Besides, even if she really was a Satan worshiper, she can't be fired for it. I'm sorry, but the Church of Satan is an established organization. It is fully legal, therefore your actions against such people is completely intolerant. Despite how much harm Christianity has done to paganism in the past, and how many intolerant worshipers still persecute against us today, I must reconize that every religion has extremists, and that the main reason their are so many intolerant members is because it is the largest religion in the world. I do find it terribly unfortanate at how this man has set a horrible example for his faith. I know one man cannot reperesent his entire faith, but this certainly is not advancing global acceptance.

Hard Core Fundie Christians will never accept that we aren't Devil Worshipers because The Bible does say that anything that isn't of The Lord (IE The Abrahamic Religion), is the work of The Devil. So since we do not follow Judaism, Christianity or Islam, we are Devil Worshipers.

I was called a Satanist just for being in a band that didnt sing about Christianity,

"If you arent singing for the Lord, youre singing for the Devil" dumbest thing Ive ever heard,

Soooo.... according to that... critic... all art and music besides religious stuff is satanic? That sounds like a thoroughly depressing world view.

[Pope Joan]

I was called a Satanist just for being in a band that didnt sing about Christianity,

"If you arent singing for the Lord, youre singing for the Devil" dumbest thing Ive ever heard,

Amy Grant got the same criticism for her song, "Baby, Baby".

Lumping poor old Amy right in there with human sacrifice (in the minds of the critics), apparently.

People who are defined by what they hate are not able to define themselves by what they love, it seems to me.

[Maurepas]

Soooo.... according to that... critic... all art and music besides religious stuff is satanic? That sounds like a thoroughly depressing world view.

Yeah, me and the drummer from our band at the time were Substitute Teachers, and one of the Teachers on staff was a pastor at a church and wanted us to go play for them, and that was his argument....

it just creeped me out,

[Callisdrun]

Soooo.... according to that... critic... all art and music besides religious stuff is satanic? That sounds like a thoroughly depressing world view.

Yeah, me and the drummer from our band at the time were Substitute Teachers, and one of the Teachers on staff was a pastor at a church and wanted us to go play for them, and that was his argument....

it just creeped me out,

Yeah, I would be creeped out, too.

[Skibereen]

Wiccan Says Firing Was Religious Bias
By CHRISTINE STUART

HARTFORD (CN) - A sales manager says she was fired unfairly for making her annual religious pilgrimage to Salem, Mass., to celebrate the Wiccan New Year. She claims her boss told her, "You will need a new career in your new year. ... I will be damned if I have a devil-worshipper on my team." nIn her federal complaint, Gina Uberti says she worked for Bath and Body Works for 8 years, and for 6 years had been allowed to make the annual trip in October celebrate the Wiccan holiday of Samhain.

She says she was granted her request to take vacation the week of Oct. 31, 2008 by her boss at the time, regional manager Scott Kerby. But Kerby was replaced by Sandra Scibelli, whom Bath and Body Works hired in 2008, according to the complaint.

On Nov. 4, 2008 Uberti says, she had a phone conversation with Scibelli, who expressed disappointment that Uberti had chosen the week of Oct. 31 for her vacation. Uberti says she explained that her vacation had already been approved and that she was celebrating a religious holiday. Uberti says Scibelli responded, "That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Let me ask you where your priorities should have been?"

Uberti says she asked what was ridiculous, and Scibelli replied: "Well, you will need a new career in your new year." Scibelli allegedly added, "I will be damned if I have a devil-worshipper on my team."Uberti says she was fired in November 2008. She seeks lost wages and punitive damages for religious discrimination.
She is represented by James Sabatini of Newington.

The lawsuit states that many Wiccans go to Salem, Mass. to celebrate their new year, which begins at sundown on Oct. 31, but it does not explain why they chose Salem - perhaps an unlikely choice - for the festival. Samhain, or the Wiccan New Year, is "the most important of the four 'greater Sabbats'" or festivals, for Wiccans, Uberti says.

Link

Well, she didn't violate any company policy, she followed everything correctly, she got fired because her boss was an ass. I hope she wins.

She should win, not only did not she not violate company policy but her boss should have cheked to make sure uncle same thought it was ridiculous...because The US GOvernment recognizes Wicca as a bonifide religion so this chick could have huge lawsuit...not to mention opening the door for any pentacle wearing fakers to claim they felt "intimidated" by this broad.

It doesnt matter if she want to go eat cow shit in a pasture in Kansas...she was approved, beyond that it was her bosses fecking business anyway.

[Orcoa]

When will people accept that we are not Satan worshipers?!?! Satan is a Abrahamic (Judaism, Christianity, Islam are primary examples) religious concept. I personally may believe that all gods and goddesses from every religion exist, rather than just the pagan ones as most Wiccans do. However, he is typically not reconized as a diety or quasi-diety amongst the faith. He is, as most Non-Abrahamic religions, considered to be the dark side of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. Besides, even if she really was a Satan worshiper, she can't be fired for it. I'm sorry, but the Church of Satan is an established organization. It is fully legal, therefore your actions against such people is completely intolerant. Despite how much harm Christianity has done to paganism in the past, and how many intolerant worshipers still persecute against us today, I must reconize that every religion has extremists, and that the main reason their are so many intolerant members is because it is the largest religion in the world. I do find it terribly unfortanate at how this man has set a horrible example for his faith. I know one man cannot reperesent his entire faith, but this certainly is not advancing global acceptance.

Hard Core Fundie Christians will never accept that we aren't Devil Worshipers because The Bible does say that anything that isn't of The Lord (IE The Abrahamic Religion), is the work of The Devil. So since we do not follow Judaism, Christianity or Islam, we are Devil Worshipers.

I think people should respected other religions, I do, wiccans in my view are equals to other religions

[Tsa-la-gi Nation]

Wiccan Says Firing Was Religious Bias
By CHRISTINE STUART

HARTFORD (CN) - A sales manager says she was fired unfairly for making her annual religious pilgrimage to Salem, Mass., to celebrate the Wiccan New Year. She claims her boss told her, "You will need a new career in your new year. ... I will be damned if I have a devil-worshipper on my team." nIn her federal complaint, Gina Uberti says she worked for Bath and Body Works for 8 years, and for 6 years had been allowed to make the annual trip in October celebrate the Wiccan holiday of Samhain.

She says she was granted her request to take vacation the week of Oct. 31, 2008 by her boss at the time, regional manager Scott Kerby. But Kerby was replaced by Sandra Scibelli, whom Bath and Body Works hired in 2008, according to the complaint.

On Nov. 4, 2008 Uberti says, she had a phone conversation with Scibelli, who expressed disappointment that Uberti had chosen the week of Oct. 31 for her vacation. Uberti says she explained that her vacation had already been approved and that she was celebrating a religious holiday. Uberti says Scibelli responded, "That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Let me ask you where your priorities should have been?"

Uberti says she asked what was ridiculous, and Scibelli replied: "Well, you will need a new career in your new year." Scibelli allegedly added, "I will be damned if I have a devil-worshipper on my team."Uberti says she was fired in November 2008. She seeks lost wages and punitive damages for religious discrimination.
She is represented by James Sabatini of Newington.

The lawsuit states that many Wiccans go to Salem, Mass. to celebrate their new year, which begins at sundown on Oct. 31, but it does not explain why they chose Salem - perhaps an unlikely choice - for the festival. Samhain, or the Wiccan New Year, is "the most important of the four 'greater Sabbats'" or festivals, for Wiccans, Uberti says.

Link

Well, she didn't violate any company policy, she followed everything correctly, she got fired because her boss was an ass. I hope she wins.

Maybe this will be the storyline for a Pagan version of Scrooge!

[Wilgrove]

Wiccan Says Firing Was Religious Bias
By CHRISTINE STUART

HARTFORD (CN) - A sales manager says she was fired unfairly for making her annual religious pilgrimage to Salem, Mass., to celebrate the Wiccan New Year. She claims her boss told her, "You will need a new career in your new year. ... I will be damned if I have a devil-worshipper on my team." nIn her federal complaint, Gina Uberti says she worked for Bath and Body Works for 8 years, and for 6 years had been allowed to make the annual trip in October celebrate the Wiccan holiday of Samhain.

She says she was granted her request to take vacation the week of Oct. 31, 2008 by her boss at the time, regional manager Scott Kerby. But Kerby was replaced by Sandra Scibelli, whom Bath and Body Works hired in 2008, according to the complaint.

On Nov. 4, 2008 Uberti says, she had a phone conversation with Scibelli, who expressed disappointment that Uberti had chosen the week of Oct. 31 for her vacation. Uberti says she explained that her vacation had already been approved and that she was celebrating a religious holiday. Uberti says Scibelli responded, "That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Let me ask you where your priorities should have been?"

Uberti says she asked what was ridiculous, and Scibelli replied: "Well, you will need a new career in your new year." Scibelli allegedly added, "I will be damned if I have a devil-worshipper on my team."Uberti says she was fired in November 2008. She seeks lost wages and punitive damages for religious discrimination.
She is represented by James Sabatini of Newington.

The lawsuit states that many Wiccans go to Salem, Mass. to celebrate their new year, which begins at sundown on Oct. 31, but it does not explain why they chose Salem - perhaps an unlikely choice - for the festival. Samhain, or the Wiccan New Year, is "the most important of the four 'greater Sabbats'" or festivals, for Wiccans, Uberti says.

Link

Well, she didn't violate any company policy, she followed everything correctly, she got fired because her boss was an ass. I hope she wins.

Maybe this will be the storyline for a Pagan version of Scrooge!

Well Ghost of Christmas Present does look like The Holly King.

[Maurepas]

Maybe this will be the storyline for a Pagan version of Scrooge!

Odin Bless us Every one!


...Idk, doesnt quite have the ring to it,

[Wilgrove]

Maybe this will be the storyline for a Pagan version of Scrooge!

Odin Bless us Every one!


...Idk, doesnt quite have the ring to it,

Hmm....Thor Bless us, Everyone?

[Mirkana]

I've read up on Wicca, and I find it to be a fascinating belief system. The manager is a jerk, and it would be perfectly fine with me if you rammed a broom* up his ass.

* - I know that Wiccans don't ride broomsticks - they use them to clean ritual spaces.

[Tekania]

Maybe this will be the storyline for a Pagan version of Scrooge!

Odin Bless us Every one!


...Idk, doesnt quite have the ring to it,

Hmm....Thor Bless us, Everyone?

I like Thor too.....

[Callisdrun]

Maybe this will be the storyline for a Pagan version of Scrooge!

Odin Bless us Every one!


...Idk, doesnt quite have the ring to it,

Hmm....Thor Bless us, Everyone?

I like Thor too.....

Lol, that's awesome.

[Non Aligned States]

I was called a Satanist just for being in a band that didnt sing about Christianity,

"If you arent singing for the Lord, youre singing for the Devil" dumbest thing Ive ever heard,

Are you sure he wasn't a relative of G.W. Bush?

[Araraukar]

You know, if it's generally accepted that Xtianity has every Sunday as a holy day, Jewish have every Saturday as holy day and was it Islam that has every Friday as holy day... calculate how many holy days per year that makes (52 or 53, I think) and then give each member of a recognized religion (tip: in the States every recognized religion is allowed to marry people, even if it was officially treated as civil marriage) an equal number of holy days off each year. The days would depend on said religion's holy days, of course.

Equal treatment all around, eh?

[SaintB]

No, you simply don't grasp the entirety of my argument.

I do not promote ideas in an intellectual vacuum, but rather in the context of all the other ideas I promote.

I don't care what "wrongful termination" law says, because such law is inherently illegitimate. I was talking about an agent of the shareholders violating an internal policy of the shareholders.

No it's legitimate.... At least here in the REAL world it is.... You want to take part in a free soceity, you have to play by a free soceities rules....

Not really all that concerned about that make-believe la-la-land drug induced dream-world of which you occupy.

Here in the REAL world we had to make employment rules to keep corporations from exploiting the populace using deceptive practices and force (which they were in fact doing)... See, these rules didn't just materialize out of thin air for no apparent reason but to "enslave" some corporate goon.... These rules surfaced because corporate goons could not refrain from exploiting the populace by any means at their disposal; and since they left soceity in general but with two options (voiding the existance of corporate goons or regulating their practice).... We chose the options which at least allowed them the chance to still exist... The only person who is the least concerned about wanting to end such regulations is one who is not ethically sound enough to be allowed to practice within business in the first place...

Bluth Corporation Likes to be edgy by saying that anything other than what he says is illegitimate.

[SaintB]

It's called growing the fuck up.

But in the USA that's not fashionable.