Gun Permit

[Nua Corda]

My proposal:

Licensing

Prospective licences-holders must complete a state-approved training course and two tests, a written test and a practical test, much like a driver's license. They must receive a certificate of sanity from a licensed psychiatrist. The License would take the form of a photo ID card, with license-holder's gender, height, weight, hair and eye color, date of birth, signature and address. It would have significant protection against forgery, much like a driver's license, and could be used as a catch-all ID. Hunting licenses would be applied to the back of the license, as stickers, much like car tabs.

The basic license would be good for any semi-automatic long guns (rifles or shotguns with barrels exceeding 18 inches in length), but could be updated with icons indicating additional classes of firearm permitted such as handguns, short-barreled shotguns, short-barreled rifles, NFA "machineguns", "destructive devices" and suppressors. These could be added either by passing a qualification test (primarily for handguns), or by meeting requirements set by the government. States may increase the requirements for classes at their discretion, but the federal minimum must be met.

The license would require a background check to be issued, need to be renewed every five to ten years (depending on the state), and could be revoked following any firearms violation which endangered life, or any felony conviction for violent crime. It would serve as the only thing necessary to purchase a firearm, provided that firearm was permitted by the class of license.

Penalty for owning or carrying a firearm without a license would be a felony, and barr the convict from ever owning firearms again.

Registration

All firearms, bolt-heads and barrels must be registered with the government upon purchase. This could be easily done through the FFL, simply by showing your license, signing a document, and the FFL holder adding the weapon to your file and printing off a conformation of registration and duplicate of your signed document. Registration would include make, model and serial number of all firearms, boltheads and barrels, as well as a test-fired bullet from every barrel, and a test-fired casing from every bolt-head. Police could then search serial numbers, persons, or recovered bullets and casings in the database and receive all of the information.

There would be no grandfathering for registration. All gun owners must bring their weapons, barrels and bolts into an FFL or State office to be registered within a year of the enacting of the law. Found guns, inherited guns, or other weapons not previously known of can still be brought in and registered, and there is no penalty for registering a gun late, only for being caught with an unregistered gun over a year after the law was passed. The state would be required to notify all residents of the law.

Penalty for being caught with an unregistered gun after the allotted period would be a felony, and bar the convict from ever owning firearms again.

[Individual]

I applied it onto other people. My own self-interest matters to me first and foremost. I was probably too unclear in my posts, and to that, I apologize.

First you defend yourself, then your family/friends, then the innocent of your community.

Am I hallucinating, or do we actually have common ground in something?

[Individual]

No, I don't think you should be able to have one...

No offense.

Meh, I think it is better to have those since the police or the military aren't that quickly everywhere. But sure, that's just my opinion.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Against. Either have a national ID card and provide that to quickly make sure you aren't a felon or mentally disabled, or build it into a driver's license or something. Background checks are uselessly thorough.

[Vainakh]

I might be being stupid, but it seems to me that the harder guns are to get, the larger the black market demand for illegal firearms becomes, which makes it more profitable, which means more illegal firearms.

[Liriena]

Against. Either have a national ID card and provide that to quickly make sure you aren't a felon or mentally disabled, or build it into a driver's license or something. Background checks are uselessly thorough.

Why is it so radical to ask people to prove to the state that they can be healthy, responsible and law-abiding gun owners before giving them permission to own a gun, but's it not crazy at all to demand the same thing for a bloody car?

[Liriena]

I might be being stupid, but it seems to me that the harder guns are to get, the larger the black market demand for illegal firearms becomes, which makes it more profitable, which means more illegal firearms.

The black market can be taken care of by an efficient police force and laws that can deter illegal gun ownership.

[Big Jim P]

My proposal:

Licensing

Prospective licences-holders must complete a state-approved training course and two tests, a written test and a practical test, much like a driver's license. The License would take the form of a photo ID card, with license-holder's gender, height, weight, hair and eye color, date of birth, signature and address. It would have significant protection against forgery, much like a driver's license, and could be used as a catch-all ID. Hunting licenses would be applied to the back of the license, as stickers, much like car tabs.¹

The basic license would be good for any semi-automatic long guns (rifles or shotguns with barrels exceeding 18 inches in length), but could be updated with icons indicating additional classes of firearm permitted such as handguns, short-barreled shotguns, short-barreled rifles, NFA "machineguns", "destructive devices" and suppressors. These could be added either by passing a qualification test (primarily for handguns), or by meeting requirements set by the government. States may increase the requirements for classes at their discretion, but the federal minimum must be met.²

The license would require a background check to be issued, need to be renewed every five to ten years (depending on the state), and could be revoked following any firearms violation which endangered life, or any felony conviction for violent crime. It would serve as the only thing necessary to purchase a firearm, provided that firearm was permitted by the class of license.³

Penalty for owning or carrying a firearm without a license would be a felony, and barr the convict from ever owning firearms again.⁴

Registration

All firearms, bolt-heads and barrels must be registered with the government upon purchase. This could be easily done through the FFL, simply by showing your license, signing a document, and the FFL holder adding the weapon to your file and printing off a conformation of registration and duplicate of your signed document. Registration would include make, model and serial number of all firearms, boltheads and barrels, as well as a test-fired bullet from every barrel, and a test-fired casing from every bolt-head. Police could then search serial numbers, persons, or recovered bullets and casings in the database and receive all of the information.⁵

There would be no grandfathering for registration. All gun owners must bring their weapons, barrels and bolts into an FFL or State office to be registered within a year of the enacting of the law. Found guns, inherited guns, or other weapons not previously known of can still be brought in and registered, and there is no penalty for registering a gun late, only for being caught with an unregistered gun over a year after the law was passed. The state would be required to notify all residents of the law.⁶

Penalty for being caught with an unregistered gun after the allotted period would be a felony, and bar the convict from ever owning firearms again.⁷

Overall: Your proposal goes into more detail than either mine or SBs, and in my opinion steps to far into restrictions on personal rights. That being said, let me address the points:

1: This is a more detailed version of what has been proposed.
2: Again, a more detailed version.
3: More details. The only objection here is the renewal requirement. that is covered in the revocation clauses already proposed and skirts close to the violation of personal rights. I am somewhat on the fence about this.
4: Felons who have served their sentences may petition for a reinstatement of their rights. This should be allowed here as well.
5: Now we are definitely steeping on personal rights: Change the registration requirements to "Upon manufacture" and the police search to "with a warrant".
6: Again, definitely stepping on personal rights. However I have no proposal.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Against. Either have a national ID card and provide that to quickly make sure you aren't a felon or mentally disabled, or build it into a driver's license or something. Background checks are uselessly thorough.

Why is it so radical to ask people to prove to the state that they can be healthy, responsible and law-abiding gun owners before giving them permission to own a gun, but's it not crazy at all to demand the same thing for a bloody car?

Shouldn't have to for a car either.

[Big Jim P]

First you defend yourself, then your family/friends, then the innocent of your community.

Am I hallucinating, or do we actually have common ground in something?

You are not hallucinating. We have common ground.

[Big Jim P]

I might be being stupid, but it seems to me that the harder guns are to get, the larger the black market demand for illegal firearms becomes, which makes it more profitable, which means more illegal firearms.

The black market can be taken care of by an efficient police force and laws that can deter illegal gun ownership.

Deterring illegal gun ownership/use is easy: Double (or triple whatever it takes) the penalty for any crime committed with a firearm. Instead of going for the legal owners, make the criminals pay.

[Liriena]

Why is it so radical to ask people to prove to the state that they can be healthy, responsible and law-abiding gun owners before giving them permission to own a gun, but's it not crazy at all to demand the same thing for a bloody car?

Shouldn't have to for a car either.

Seriously?

And you see nothing wrong with this idea of yours? No risks whatsoever? You are perfectly content with allowing, say, a man with psychosis, Alzheimer's, MS or Parkinson's drive a van, with no state control...unless, of course, he kills someone?

[Liriena]

The black market can be taken care of by an efficient police force and laws that can deter illegal gun ownership.

Deterring illegal gun ownership/use is easy: Double (or triple whatever it takes) the penalty for any crime committed with a firearm. Instead of going for the legal owners, make the criminals pay.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

[Big Jim P]

Shouldn't have to for a car either.

Seriously?

And you see nothing wrong with this idea of yours? No risks whatsoever? You are perfectly content with allowing, say, a man with psychosis, Alzheimer's, MS or Parkinson's drive a van, with no state control...unless, of course, he kills someone?

One of my friends is epileptic. He cannot safely operate a car, and I damn sure would not hand him a gun.

[Big Jim P]

Deterring illegal gun ownership/use is easy: Double (or triple whatever it takes) the penalty for any crime committed with a firearm. Instead of going for the legal owners, make the criminals pay.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

Seems that when reasonable people get together, they find common ground. Shocking.

[Individual]

I might be being stupid, but it seems to me that the harder guns are to get, the larger the black market demand for illegal firearms becomes, which makes it more profitable, which means more illegal firearms.

The black market can be taken care of by an efficient police force and laws that can deter illegal gun ownership.

Yes, make it so only criminals have guns, enforcing the black market itself as was said and turn the US into a police state. That will certainly hit the spot.

[Liriena]

Seriously?

And you see nothing wrong with this idea of yours? No risks whatsoever? You are perfectly content with allowing, say, a man with psychosis, Alzheimer's, MS or Parkinson's drive a van, with no state control...unless, of course, he kills someone?

One of my friends is epileptic. He cannot safely operate a car, and I damn sure would not hand him a gun.

The idea that anyone should be able to own a gun, regardless of physical or mental condition, is irresponsible, both socially and legally.

The source on your sig was very clear in its comparison between the US and Switzerland: yes, guns are legally a lot less restricted there, but people themselves take guns seriously, they own them and use them responsibly, their entire culture revolves around an authoritarian idea of national duty when it comes to guns (rather than personal liberty) and most if not all male inhabitants have had at least basic military training.

[Liriena]

The black market can be taken care of by an efficient police force and laws that can deter illegal gun ownership.

Yes, make it so only criminals have guns, enforcing the black market itself as was said and turn the US into a police state. That will certainly hit the spot.

Nice try, but no. Not even remotely close to what was being talked about.


I'll let someone else do the talking for me...

Deterring illegal gun ownership/use is easy: Double (or triple whatever it takes) the penalty for any crime committed with a firearm. Instead of going for the legal owners, make the criminals pay.

[Big Jim P]

One of my friends is epileptic. He cannot safely operate a car, and I damn sure would not hand him a gun.

The idea that anyone should be able to own a gun, regardless of physical or mental condition, is irresponsible, both socially and legally.

The source on your sig was very clear in its comparison between the US and Switzerland: yes, guns are legally a lot less restricted there, but people themselves take guns seriously, they own them and use them responsibly, their entire culture revolves around an authoritarian idea of national duty when it comes to guns (rather than personal liberty) and most if not all male inhabitants have had at least basic military training.

People not taking the responsibility of gun ownership seriously, combined with those who demonize gun ownership is the entire problem we have today.

[Occupied Deutschland]

The black market can be taken care of by an efficient police force and laws that can deter illegal gun ownership.

Deterring illegal gun ownership/use is easy: Double (or triple whatever it takes) the penalty for any crime committed with a firearm. Instead of going for the legal owners, make the criminals pay.

I've never found any numbers on it (and in truth I haven't looked all that hard) but I've always heard that firearms charges like illegal possession or the like are some of the first things bargained away or dropped in exchange for other guilty pleas or other cooperation.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Shouldn't have to for a car either.

Seriously?

And you see nothing wrong with this idea of yours? No risks whatsoever? You are perfectly content with allowing, say, a man with psychosis, Alzheimer's, MS or Parkinson's drive a van, with no state control...unless, of course, he kills someone?

Against. Either have a national ID card and provide that to quickly make sure you aren't a felon or mentally disabled, or build it into a driver's license or something. Background checks are uselessly thorough.

[Big Jim P]

Deterring illegal gun ownership/use is easy: Double (or triple whatever it takes) the penalty for any crime committed with a firearm. Instead of going for the legal owners, make the criminals pay.

I've never found any numbers on it (and in truth I haven't looked all that hard) but I've always heard that firearms charges like illegal possession or the like are some of the first things bargained away or dropped in exchange for other guilty pleas or other cooperation.

Perhaps eliminate plea bargaining if a firearm is used, as well as stiffer penalties?

[Liriena]

The idea that anyone should be able to own a gun, regardless of physical or mental condition, is irresponsible, both socially and legally.

The source on your sig was very clear in its comparison between the US and Switzerland: yes, guns are legally a lot less restricted there, but people themselves take guns seriously, they own them and use them responsibly, their entire culture revolves around an authoritarian idea of national duty when it comes to guns (rather than personal liberty) and most if not all male inhabitants have had at least basic military training.

People not taking the responsibility of gun ownership seriously, combined with those who demonize gun ownership is the entire problem we have today.

I think I agree.

[Liriena]

Seriously?

And you see nothing wrong with this idea of yours? No risks whatsoever? You are perfectly content with allowing, say, a man with psychosis, Alzheimer's, MS or Parkinson's drive a van, with no state control...unless, of course, he kills someone?

Against. Either have a national ID card and provide that to quickly make sure you aren't a felon or mentally disabled, or build it into a driver's license or something. Background checks are uselessly thorough.

So, what's the big difference between installing a national ID card system, and a system of gun permits?

And again, I must ask: why is it so annoying to demand that someone demonstrate that they can handle a car or a gun properly before allowing them to?

[Xsyne]

Because defense does not involve shooting first.

If you see a crazy mofo on a killing spree, it's not only your right, but an obligation to aim at him and pull the trigger.

Which, assuming you hit and incapacitate him, only prevents him from firing more shots. It does not prevent him from having fired the shots that he already fired.