You Don't Exist, Apparently...

[Angleter]

Now let's get real here. Fact exists. I can make a statement:

Barack Obama is a member of the Democratic Party.

That is a fact, hence fact exists.

teh democratic party might be secretly the new communist party (countered! lol)

So? That could be true, probably not though. Whether that's true or not, Obama's still a Democrat.

[Fartsniffage]

Now let's get real here. Fact exists. I can make a statement:

Barack Obama is a member of the Democratic Party.

That is a fact, hence fact exists.

Have you met Barack Obama?

[Angleter]

Now let's get real here. Fact exists. I can make a statement:

Barack Obama is a member of the Democratic Party.

That is a fact, hence fact exists.

Have you met Barack Obama?

No, but he was filmed live on TV giving the keynote speech of the Democratic National Convention, and there are eyewitnesses to that.

[Fartsniffage]

No, but he was filmed live on TV giving the keynote speech of the Democratic National Convention, and there are eyewitnesses to that.

Have you spoken to these eyewitnesses?

Are you expert enough to distinguish between a real recording of a speech and a professionally doctored forgery?

How do you know the broadcast was live?

Were those who have spoken of the event not coerced in some way?

[Lackadaisical2]

as far as i know my reality exists, i don't know about yours. as what i see, say or type could be something completely different to what is actually happening. i could be dreaming this all up, or you could, or someone else could. certainty cannot truly exist because existence is just a matter of perception.

Yeah and... lets pretend that there is an equal possibility that reality does exist as it does not exist. In other words there is a 50% chance that you are "real".

Lets go with the first assumption that reality is false and only, and entirely figment of imagination (mine or someone elses). If this is the case then nothing matters because it is not real anyway. Any actions I take have no real effects just as any non actions I take have no effects positive or negative as they are all an illusion.

Still going with the assumption of non reality lets assume I act as if it is real despite it being an illusion. There would be no real negative effects of such a silly action as treating this illusion of reality I'm stuck in as real.

Say I treat it as if it were not real: There would still be no actually effect as it is simply an illusion anyway.

Now assume instead that the there is a reality and it is not an illusion then if I act as if it were an illusion bad things could happen to me and others. We could die, we could feel pain so it would be dangerous in a real world to treat it as an illusion. Sharp objects actually are sharp and trains will run you over.

Continuing with our assumption that there is a reality lets say I treat this reality as if it were real. In this case I make choices based on this reality that are in the best interests of myself and others who do exist (as per the assumptions of the argument.) Since I've made these choices "rationally" I benefit and so do others. For example I do not step in front of moving trains because I feel they are a real.

We can conclude therefore that our best choice is to treat the world as real and rational because the risks of doing otherwise are greater with no rewards.

This is the same reasoning as to why I'm inlcined to worship God. If he doesn't exist I haven't hurt myself in believing that he does, but theres the off chance (I realize, much lower than reality being real) that I could benefit greatly.

[Hairless Kitten II]

This is the same reasoning as to why I'm inlcined to worship God. If he doesn't exist I haven't hurt myself in believing that he does, but theres the off chance (I realize, much lower than reality being real) that I could benefit greatly.

People who believe in god should not be afraid, people who do not believe in god must not be afraid for sure.

[Mad hatters in jeans]

try out a bit of Hume on existance.
Heh descartes really did a number on you didn't he?

[The_pantless_hero]

Now let's get real here. Fact exists. I can make a statement:

Barack Obama is a member of the Democratic Party.

That is a fact, hence fact exists.

teh democratic party might be secretly the new communist party (countered! lol)

So? That could be true, probably not though. Whether that's true or not, Obama's still a Democrat.

I don't think you quite understand the difference between a fact and an assertion.

[Svenen (Ancient)]

I suspect people don't exist when I'm not looking at them. They hardly exist when I'm looking at them, so this doesn't seem far off.

[Hydesland]

I don't exist? Awesome, I guess that means my degree and my job doesn't exist either! Hey everybody, there's no need to do any work, let's all go home and play video games!

[CornixPes II]

I'm fascinated by this idea and always have been. It is both completely enlightening and totally dangerous. There are people out there who can use this sort of radical existentialism to talk themselves into a total anarchic view of life, whereby they have nothing to lose because nothing truly exists. I generally use this debate to modify my perspective of life; I view things objectively, but I always have that niggling belief that what I am seeing needs irrefutable proof before I can completely believe it.

[Brewdomia]

Is nothing truly known? Is everything a guess?

Does fact exist?

The very fact you had that conversation proves there is one universal constant that is undeniable: stupidity.

see my sig quote.

[Zeppy]

God doesn't exist?

[Maurepas]

I exist in my mind...its everything else I have to question,

[DrunkenDove]

"I think, therefore I am."

He responded:

"You can never know, you can never be sure. Your life could be a mirage, a dream, etc."

That's not a good refutation. Evern if your life is a dream, that implies that there is a "you" that dreams it. Or at least a "someone".

[Rhodmhire]

So....this is The Matrix?

*Goes jump off a building in an attempt to jump to the other one, falls, and dies*

Damn it, you should have sprouted wings and flown into the sun.

I knew not anything was possible.

[Rhodmhire]

God doesn't exist?

;)

Oh, I see what you did there.

[CornixPes II]

Not everything is possible. It's impossible to solve this debate.

[Pope Joan]

The self is a working assumption for most psychologists.

Many would agree that we start with others, and then use them as models to construct a model of the self.

Griffin, K Bartholomew - Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 1994

So, oddly enough, the concept of other may predate the formed concept of self.

[CornixPes II]

The self is a working assumption for most psychologists.

Many would agree that we start with others, and then use them as models to construct a model of the self.

Griffin, K Bartholomew - Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 1994

So, oddly enough, the concept of other may predate the formed concept of self.

It's strange how most academic topics are built on inherent principles that are effectively 'working' and undecided. It's like economics and capital.

[Buffett and Colbert]

"You never know" is a crappy legitimisation of any conspiracy theory. Instead of debating how you know you exist, why not attack that?

[Pope Joan]

The self is a working assumption for most psychologists.

Many would agree that we start with others, and then use them as models to construct a model of the self.

Griffin, K Bartholomew - Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 1994

So, oddly enough, the concept of other may predate the formed concept of self.

It's strange how most academic topics are built on inherent principles that are effectively 'working' and undecided. It's like economics and capital.

By Jove, I think you've got it.

But every system has to start somewhere, doesn't it? You posit some unmoved mover, or whatever.

[Hydesland]

"You never know" is a crappy legitimisation of any conspiracy theory. Instead of debating how you know you exist, why not attack that?

But how do you know it's a crappy legitimisation? You don't, not for sure, therefore it's probably reasonable to assume that you don't exist. Get it, it makes perfect sense, because you never know, it may not make perfect sense, but how do I know that I never know? I don't, so I must know, because I don't know that I don't know, which is a contradiction. Perfect logic!

[CornixPes II]

The self is a working assumption for most psychologists.

Many would agree that we start with others, and then use them as models to construct a model of the self.

Griffin, K Bartholomew - Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 1994

So, oddly enough, the concept of other may predate the formed concept of self.

It's strange how most academic topics are built on inherent principles that are effectively 'working' and undecided. It's like economics and capital.

By Jove, I think you've got it.

But every system has to start somewhere, doesn't it? You posit some unmoved mover, or whatever.

I know, but in a twisted way it is quite amusing to know everything that we take for granted is based on principles which we've given up trying to define (in most cases).

[Pevisopolis]

Rhodmhire, your friend was probably high. I've had many a stoney thought along those exact same lines.